Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Lexicon7
Solar Expert Posts: 50 ✭✭✭✭
New to Solar: Working on a small system that came with my Lance TC. The system is comprised of one small panel measuring 51" X 13", a very small ASC Solar Controller (no led's, just the red light, you know the one!) and one "EverStart 94" AH @1a 109 12V Battery!
I've done a lot of reading to the point of near data overload :grr and find comments about fuses quite often. In my view, the problem with too much study in theory when learning a new craft is separating opinion from fact with safety in mind.
I'm installing an Inverter since my system does not have one.
I'm working with #10 wire and have read that one should install "Type 10 ATC (Automotive) Fuse Link w/30 Amp Fuse" and other descriptions.
Q1: What type of fuses should I install and where can I purchase them? Local Auto Parts Store, Lowe's or Solar Specialty on line only?
Q2: Should I Install one or two fuses. One between the batt & Inverter only or one on the "to batt" side as well?
Q3: I don't see any fuses on the little ASC Controller. Should I install fuses on those lines as well while I'm under the sink there or are the "built in" systems good enough?
Any assistance greatly appreciated.
I've done a lot of reading to the point of near data overload :grr and find comments about fuses quite often. In my view, the problem with too much study in theory when learning a new craft is separating opinion from fact with safety in mind.
I'm installing an Inverter since my system does not have one.
I'm working with #10 wire and have read that one should install "Type 10 ATC (Automotive) Fuse Link w/30 Amp Fuse" and other descriptions.
Q1: What type of fuses should I install and where can I purchase them? Local Auto Parts Store, Lowe's or Solar Specialty on line only?
Q2: Should I Install one or two fuses. One between the batt & Inverter only or one on the "to batt" side as well?
Q3: I don't see any fuses on the little ASC Controller. Should I install fuses on those lines as well while I'm under the sink there or are the "built in" systems good enough?
Any assistance greatly appreciated.
Comments
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Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
First things first: you are installing an inverter. Which one/what size? It makes a huge difference.
For example 30 Amps @ 12 Volts is 360 Watts. An inverter capable of more power than that means an inverter capable of blowing that fuse every time you load it up.
Related to that is the 94 Amp hour battery which isn't going to power much.
Question #1: where you get the fuse is going to depend on the type of fuse required as per above. A lot of the automotive stuff is pretty poor quality and may fail under higher currents and continual use. You may find that getting the battery post terminal fuse block from Blue Sea is a better choice here. But you do need to determine just what it is you're after first.
Now for questions #2 and #3: there should be a fuse on the output of the charge controller and another one on the input to the inverter. These are two separate circuits which have the battery in common. They may have different wires sizes, so they would have different fuse capacities as well. If you don't know whether or not there's a fuse on the circuit, find out. It could well have been skipped.
Fuses are not required to make something work: they are there to prevent disaster should something go wrong. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Thanks for that: just realized that I have an Automotive Battery there so I need more upgrading than I had thought. OK so I have a situation here. I have a couple of weeks to be out of my house and use a BiPap Breathing Machine at night. I do not intend to be in any expensive parks so if nothing else, I just need AC power for night time breathing.
The Inverter I own was purchase years ago and is designed for a quick "car battery" type of use.
It was probably marketed at an Auto Parts store and came with large alligator type clips.
Wagan Tech Auto AC Inverter:Tavele's Power 600 Watts Model 9928
It would really help me if I could use this one safely even temporarily due to my situation with my home but if it is just not acceptable in the eyes of the knowledgable solar community then I will pick up a better one suited for the task. I better replace that battery first!
The BiPap Machine is a ResMed S9 Series with an H5i heated Humidifier:
S9 Machine: 90W Power Supply
H5i Humidifier: 30W Power Supply -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Oh dear; another one. It's amazing how many people have to use those breathing machines! It's also appalling how much power they take.
Look what happens when you add your unit's 90 and 30 Watts together and multiply by 24: 2880 Watt hours. More power than my whole cabin uses in a day running a refrigerator and satellite connection! Certainly more power than you are going to get from a 94 Amp hour 12 Volt battery. A lot more.
In reality you're looking at around 565 Amp hours @ 12 Volts and 50% DOD for one day's power. That would require about 980 Watts of array and a 60 Amp controller.
And you certainly don't want to connect an inverter via alligator clips, no matter what size.
So ... what's Plan 'B' look like? -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
OK I do not wish to add a second panel right now and will check wire sizes and meter when I can understand how a bit better. I do have a CC Attachment not found. and I am not rich so would like to use it to run just the ResMed Machine if possible. I will get the suggested fuses and report back when I have taken a closer look at the items in question. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Ah Ha! There is the response I've been waiting for... Plan B: Hmmmm!
If I told you the full story on how I got into this mess, you wouldn't believe it.
Let's just say that health issues have pretty well devistated my life but THEY
are all behind me now and today I feel great!
Well... thanks for all the great advice. This is by far the best forum on Solar around
but who would be surprised at it coming through AZ W & S?!!
I guess we are then done for now.. Don't tell Handy Bob but seems like I may
be shopping for a gen real soon... -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!Cariboocoot wrote: »Look what happens when you add your unit's 90 and 30 Watts together and multiply by 24: 2880 Watt hours.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think those machines are only used at night.... maybe 1200 watthours would be a more realistic number.
It's not too hard to hook up an alarm if the inverter shuts down because of low battery voltage.
--vtMaps4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Yeah I know all about health issues ruining your plans and life. :grr
Generators are not evil. They are sometimes the most practical solution to a problem. -
Switching Gears?!
If I did want to run this machine with a gen, would the little Honda 1000 do the job?
Maybe this isn't the thread for this question but oh well... -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think those machines are only used at night.... maybe 1200 watthours would be a more realistic number.
It's not too hard to hook up an alarm if the inverter shuts down because of low battery voltage.
--vtMaps
Which in no way alters the example given nor changes the fact 94 Amp hours isn't going to cut it. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
VTmaps:: You are correct and thanks for the response. I use the machine from 10PM to 6AM with some spaces of non use in there somewhere when it gets ripped off in a fit of frustration during sleep and then I awaken and wonder where the mask went and why it is not on my face... -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!The BiPap Machine is a ResMed S9 Series with an H5i heated Humidifier:
S9 Machine: 90W Power Supply
H5i Humidifier: 30W Power Supply
They probably use less than the PS rating, get a kilowatt meter and measure the actual consumption over night. At least then you can know if the Honda 1000 watt gen will work or how much battery is correct to provide the power to the inverter. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!VTmaps:: You are correct and thanks for the response. I use the machine from 10PM to 6AM with some spaces of non use in there somewhere when it gets ripped off in a fit of frustration during sleep and then I awaken and wonder where the mask went and why it is not on my face...
A friend of mine is stuck with one of the things 24/7 (oxygen concentrator). He gets sick of it during the day and night and tosses it off - 'til breathing gets hard and he has to have it back. Sometimes he sleeps with oxygen tank & tube because it's less bothersome, but not as effective. He's only supposed use that when he goes out (which is rare and usually to the doctor). -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Cariboocoot: in brief, we are saying it is a "start over" right?
And if so, just wonder if perhaps one 120 panel and an upgraded batt and CC would do it?
Probably a better Inverter too eh?
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Also, I realize these forums are populated by highly skilled individuals who are great at their crafts..
(as am I at my several crafts) I also realize that one would assume there is the potential for liability if unsafe or incorrect information is provided but please.. only a moron would use alligator clips for a "hard wired" solar system. I believe some context would be usefull here. I merely explained that the Inverter I owned came with clips to make the point being that it was an "automotive" product and probably not suited to our needs here and to get direction and guidance should that be the case! -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Solar Dave ::: That's a good plan. I'll look for one today. Also, the specifiction sheet on the ResMed S9 does indicte what they call "Typical User Wattage" at 70 but it is a 2 piece machine and the Humidifier which connects up the the BiPap side is the added spec of 30 which I assume would also have a "typical user" wattage at somewhat less... Thanks.. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Dave, is this one good enough... Home D ::: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-Kill-A-Watt-Electricity-Monitor-P4400/202196386?cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-202196386&ci_sku=202196386&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969 -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!Cariboocoot: in brief, we are saying it is a "start over" right?
And if so, just wonder if perhaps one 120 panel and an upgraded batt and CC would do it?
Probably a better Inverter too eh?
****************************************************************************************************
Re-evaluate the power need with a Kill-A-Watt as per solar_dave's suggestion. This is the most accurate way to know how much power you really need to supply. From that you can size a battery bank properly and know if this project is viable. What you've got now is definitely not going to fit the bill.Also, I realize these forums are populated by highly skilled individuals who are great at their crafts..
(as am I at my several crafts) I also realize that one would assume there is the potential for liability if unsafe or incorrect information is provided but please.. only a moron would use alligator clips for a "hard wired" solar system. I believe some context would be usefull here. I merely explained that the Inverter I owned came with clips to make the point being that it was an "automotive" product and probably not suited to our needs here and to get direction and guidance should that be the case!
True, and we have to watch out for the fact that other people read the posts as well as those 'involved'. As such it pays to be cautious. Your inverter may or may not be good, but even a good one hooked up poorly won't work well. Undersized wires, for example, will choke off power even though battery and inverter are both capable of supplying needs.
You may have noticed this stuff is complicated. Sometimes we sidetrack ourselves and focus on what is actually not the most relevant point. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!Cariboocoot wrote: »True, and we have to watch out for the fact that other people read the posts as well as those 'involved'. As such it pays to be cautious. Your inverter may or may not be good, but even a good one hooked up poorly won't work well. Undersized wires, for example, will choke off power even though battery and inverter are both capable of supplying needs.
You may have noticed this stuff is complicated. Sometimes we sidetrack ourselves and focus on what is actually not the most relevant point.
It is very complicated and I am indeed struggling to understand but I am not dangerous and would never proceed without proper guidance. That's just me. I had not considered "others" who would be reading over our conversations and realize that there are some real mechanical geniouses out there for sure!
I appologize for that undue comment and really do appreciate you guys.. Some of the frustration I am feeling may have come over with me from another shall we say Brand X Solar Forum where the guys just blasted me with so many accronyms I was lost out of the shoot and that was no help at all!!!
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Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Lost out of the "chute"?
We are a mixed bag here of different experiences... And we are all trying to help the best we can.
We also try to be clear and safe in our recommendations. Unfortunately, sometimes this gets a bit repetitive and irritating. But working with Grid power and Large Battery banks is filled with risks if not done safely/correctly.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!Dave, is this one good enough... Home D ::: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-Kill-A-Watt-Electricity-Monitor-P4400/202196386?cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-202196386&ci_sku=202196386&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969
Yeah the model number looks like a typical one. You will not see starting surge with it but overall draw over time should be fine to measure the consumption. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Hey Dave, looks like this is on line only so I ordered one. Now I'll just have to wait. Thanks again... -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
That inverter is certainly large enough for your breathing machine. Just replace the clips with ring terminals. This is a modified sine wave inverter, though, I'm not sure if it would work for breathing machines. I have no idea. Might need a true sine wave.The Inverter I own was purchase years ago and is designed for a quick "car battery" type of use.
It was probably marketed at an Auto Parts store and came with large alligator type clips.
Wagan Tech Auto AC Inverter:Tavele's Power 600 Watts Model 9928
But this link says these breathing machines use 12V power, so looks like an inverter is unnecessary. Also looks like there are more efficient machines, but I don't have a clue about the difference between CPAP and BiPAP.
But it's kind of moot since your battery isn't anywhere near big enough, as Coot pointed out.
Re. the generator option, I would think a 1000W generator would be plenty unless the breathing machine has a crazy high surge at start up. The Honda EU1000 only has a run time of 4-8 hours with the standard tank depending on the load, so it may be necessary to add an external tank to keep it running all night. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Plowman, thanks for the response. I have a PDF on the ResMed S9 but my Nexus 7 is not cooperating on the upload. The only difference between CPap and BiPap is that the BiPap is upgraded to pump air in and out with your breathing. This makes the overall experience much more relaxing. These machines take months to get used to but are live makers. The Bipap is probably heavier and I would think more power hungry too. I could never use any of them without the Humidifier...
I can't find anything about it running on DC but sounds interesting.
That site you linked to is amazing! I've never seen batteries like those...
I see they are expensive but so small for their power rating and output.. thanks for that.
I have the ring connectors and am versed in wiring as per safety and config,
just for solar where they connect and how it all goes together is a big learning curve.
BTW, the AGM batt on that site seems fairly reasonably priced at about 250 I think it was.
I need to replace that car batt asap... -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Ooops.... life makers -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
They make car cigarette plug adapters for these, which means they run on 12V. It's highly inefficient to convert from 12V to 120V back to 12V, better to skip the inverter all together.I can't find anything about it running on DC but sounds interesting.
The battery in that link is small for what you want if you're really drawing ~100W. They mentioned an average of 25W.That site you linked to is amazing! I've never seen batteries like those...
I see they are expensive but so small for their power rating and output..
100W @ 12V = 8.3 amps
8.3 amps x 8 hours = 66.7 amp hours
A 150 amp hour deep cycle battery would be adequate for this, though you'd be drawing it down to nearly 50% every night. To charge this with solar, you'd need ~350W in panels (assuming 4 sun hours). This doesn't include any inefficiencies. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
My Super Duty 6.0 diesel has 2 bats of course but wouldn't using the lighter socket drain that batt too?
I mean these are sleep machines so you'd need to be running the alternater to make sense of it wouldn't you? I don't get it.. What's the point? -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!My Super Duty 6.0 diesel has 2 bats of course but wouldn't using the lighter socket drain that batt too?
I mean these are sleep machines so you'd need to be running the alternater to make sense of it wouldn't you? I don't get it.. What's the point?
The point is that if you can plug it in to a cigarette lighter it can run on 12 VDC, not that you should plug it in to the truck and run the engine all night to keep the machine going.
I would check the demands of your particular unit carefully to know what power it uses at what Voltage; sometimes there is a difference in performance between 120 VAC and 12 VDC operation, especially if the 12 VDC adapter has a buck booster circuit. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Coot, thanks for that... The ResMed S9 has a 90W PS and the companion H5i Humidifier has a 30W PS.
I ordered a KW Meter but have not received it yet.. The manual has a footnote saying that "Typical use should be around 70W for the machine and I would think subsequently less also for the Humidifier..
I can not find anything in the paperwork I have on both pieces regarding the 12V option so I think I'll put in a call to Sleep Data here in San Diego on Monday and just ask them about it... I may be able to contact the ResMed rep if they are not versed in those sorts of specs...
Just a closing note: Realizing that this does not change the fact that I have a crappy Walmart auto batt in my rig, I did pull it and test it this morning. The seller was very sloppy on most stuff but apparently he did have one "oar" in the water because all the cells are right up to spec level and the Hydrometer test was perfect! I'll have to do some more research on just how to interpret that tool but the readings were all steady at "130" and all exactly the same... That POS is doing great! -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Technical note: a specific gravity reading would be "1.300" not 130. What's more it probably ought to be "1.265" as "1.300" is much higher than normal for most batteries. -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!
Ooops, well I'm learning.. ok yeah it was "around" 1.3 so stongly in the green was a huge surprise for me... Thanks again ::: -
Re: Fuses - fuses - fuses!Ooops, well I'm learning.. ok yeah it was "around" 1.3 so stongly in the green was a huge surprise for me... Thanks again :::
Tiny air bubbles in the electrolyte (either because the electrolyte is gassing, or because some air is sucked into the hydrometer) can stick to the float and cause the reading to be higher than the actual SG.
Also, hydrometers need to be rinsed with distilled water after each use or their insides become sticky and can give falsely high or low readings.
And some hydrometers are just not accurate.
Before I learned about these issues I would just keep tapping my hydrometer until I got a reading I was happy with :roll:
--vtMaps4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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