MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

fowlerrudi
fowlerrudi Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭✭
Hello folks,
I'm looking for a little advice on charge controllers. Let me give you a little background on my system:

20x Conergy PM 230P Panels - 4600 watts total
XW6048 Invertor
MPPT80 Charge Controller - Running 2 arrays - 10 panels each I believe
Combox, AGS, SCP
1080ah 48v Deka Traction Battery

I'm burning about 10 KWhr a day. I have room for 10 more panels on my array and I plan to fill it for aesthetics. I believe I can get a Conergy PM 250P now. So I will add 10 of those for an additional 2500 watts. I will now be up to 7100 watts - way too much for my charge controller. Should I invest in another MPPT 80 or stick with the older MPPT 60-150? What are the advantages? My array really doesn't experience any shading except later in the evening and early morning if that matters.

I know there are guys on here who are going to question my 7.1KW array and 10KW load - however I am planning on playing with some 'opportunity loads' and running heat pumps to heat domestic and space heating water. So my real question is MPPT 60-150 or MPPT 80. Thanks for your help!

-Rudi

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    Do you have make of the controllers you are asking about?
  • fowlerrudi
    fowlerrudi Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    Xantrex or now known as Schneider Electric.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    Conext XW MPPT 60 Amp Solar Charge Controller
    Conext XW MPPT 80 Amp 600VDC Solar Charge Controller

    A 60 amp MPPT controller on a 48 volt battery bank "cost effective" maximum bank size:
    • 60 amps * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating = 4,597 Watt array

    So your 4,600 Watt array is pretty close to the maximum you would want to put on this controller.

    The 80 amp controller is designed to take upwards of 400 Volt Vmp array, where the 60 amp controller is about 100 VDC maximum Vmp for the array.

    The high voltage array controller is great for systems where the solar array is 100's of feet away (out on a sunny hill) when the home/battery bank/charge controller is in a shaded/tree filled area.

    The 80 amp controller is very expensive compared to the standard voltage controller ($1,150 vs $500).

    Even if you end up with 2x 60 amp MPPT controllers, it is less expensive and since each controller is operating at 1/2 power, you can add more panels later--If needed.

    Battery bank wise, to properly charge with solar power, around 5% to 13% rate of charge
    • 1,080 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 4,138 Watt array minimum
    • 1,080 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 8,275 Watt array nominal
    • 1,080 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.13 rate of charge = 10,578 Watt array "cost effective maximum"

    Looking at the rate of charge for your battery bank--A 4,600 Watt array is just about the minimum I would suggest. If this is a weekend/seasonal use installation, 5% can work OK for you.

    If this is a full time installation, you should be looking at closer to 10%+ array--Requires less baby sitting/generator run time.

    Do you have a good idea of your daily loads (by season--if A/C, Water Pumping, etc.)? Don't want a too large off grid power system if your power needs are not that large.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    I do not question you on your goals. I like the the 80A -600v controller alot because it is very flexible and have installed dozens of them. It is money well spent and since it will current limit on input and output you can over panel it. In your climate the cooler temperatures will help with extra panels on the 100 amp output breaker/electronic current limit.Make sure your strings are over 200V and low temp limit at 550V. Try for a Vmp of around 400 volts for lower wiring loss. The loss may not be an issue if you use the current wiring. Good luck!
    fowlerrudi wrote: »
    Hello folks,
    I'm looking for a little advice on charge controllers. Let me give you a little background on my system:

    20x Conergy PM 230P Panels - 4600 watts total
    XW6048 Invertor
    MPPT80 Charge Controller - Running 2 arrays - 10 panels each I believe
    Combox, AGS, SCP
    1080ah 48v Deka Traction Battery

    I'm burning about 10 KWhr a day. I have room for 10 more panels on my array and I plan to fill it for aesthetics. I believe I can get a Conergy PM 250P now. So I will add 10 of those for an additional 2500 watts. I will now be up to 7100 watts - way too much for my charge controller. Should I invest in another MPPT 80 or stick with the older MPPT 60-150? What are the advantages? My array really doesn't experience any shading except later in the evening and early morning if that matters.

    I know there are guys on here who are going to question my 7.1KW array and 10KW load - however I am planning on playing with some 'opportunity loads' and running heat pumps to heat domestic and space heating water. So my real question is MPPT 60-150 or MPPT 80. Thanks for your help!

    -Rudi
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • fowlerrudi
    fowlerrudi Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    I haven't touched a generator since December. It is my full time residence. My panels are right beside my battery shed. I just see a "fast sweep" option on the MPPT 80 and thought that perhaps maybe that would be my main advantage if I experienced a little shading. BB I already have one MPPT 80, just going to need a second charge controller for the additional panels. I'm upgrading mainly so I can experiment with opportunity loads and do some "smart shedding" using a heat pumps, water storage. Should be a time!
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    fowlerrudi wrote: »
    My panels are right beside my battery shed.

    In that case why do you have a $1200 600 volt controller? It's a very expensive solution. The reason to use such a high voltage controller is if your panels are very far from the controller.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    vtmaps wrote: »
    In that case why do you have a $1200 600 volt controller? It's a very expensive solution. The reason to use such a high voltage controller is if your panels are very far from the controller.

    --vtMaps

    I wondered that very same thing, but didn't like to ask because I'm such a nasty person already and didn't want my reputation to get even worse (if that's possible).

    For the price of one of those XW units he could have two Classic 150's and no problems at all.
  • fowlerrudi
    fowlerrudi Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    Sounds like the MPPT 60 will be the one I get. Sounds like I should sell my MPPT 80 and buy some midnight gear? The midnight gear won't interface with my combos. No shortage of auditors here. ;). Thanks for the help guys.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    fowlerrudi wrote: »
    Sounds like the MPPT 60 will be the one I get. Sounds like I should sell my MPPT 80 and buy some midnight gear? The midnight gear won't interface with my combos. No shortage of auditors here. ;). Thanks for the help guys.

    Good luck selling that XW 80-600 for anything near what you paid for it.

    In reality a charge controller does not need to communicate with an inverter or any other components, especially on a system that doesn't utilize a generator. It may be nice to have that sort of integration (if you can get it to work) but it isn't vital.

    When you have multiple controllers it is best if they can 'talk' to each other, and for that no system is better than MidNite with its "follow me" function. If you have multiple inverters they need to be in communication too. But the only time there's any real advantage to controllers and inverters sharing data is if they are both concurrent charge sources (i.e. integrated generator support). In that case Outback's FNDC seems to be the best way to go (with or without OB components).

    Remember: I don't sell anybody's brand.
  • drraptor
    drraptor Solar Expert Posts: 218 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    Good luck selling that XW 80-600 for anything near what you paid for it.

    In reality a charge controller does not need to communicate with an inverter or any other components, especially on a system that doesn't utilize a generator. It may be nice to have that sort of integration (if you can get it to work) but it isn't vital.

    When you have multiple controllers it is best if they can 'talk' to each other, and for that no system is better than MidNite with its "follow me" function. If you have multiple inverters they need to be in communication too. But the only time there's any real advantage to controllers and inverters sharing data is if they are both concurrent charge sources (i.e. integrated generator support). In that case Outback's FNDC seems to be the best way to go (with or without OB components).

    Remember: I don't sell anybody's brand.
    Can we use Outback's FNDC with other companies inverters ?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    drraptor wrote: »
    Can we use Outback's FNDC with other companies inverters ?

    To a certain extent, yes.
    Remember there will be no communication link though, so not all functions will be available.
  • drraptor
    drraptor Solar Expert Posts: 218 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    To a certain extent, yes.
    Remember there will be no communication link though, so not all functions will be available.
    If it is paired with Schneider's Hybrid inverter what functions will be lost ?
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    drraptor wrote: »
    Can we use Outback's FNDC with other companies inverters ?

    Yes. But it is, as battery monitors go, an expensive choice. IMO, the only reason to choose an FNDC as a battery monitor is to use it with Outback equipment. If you have an all outback system, with the FNDC you can do a few tricks that even the Midnites can't (yet) do.

    On the subject of the 600 volt controller... I forgot to mention one of the advantages: higher voltage strings means fewer strings and possible no need for string fuses. And one of the disadvantages of high voltage strings is the expense of high voltage disconnects and circuit breakers.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    drraptor wrote: »
    If it is paired with Schneider's Hybrid inverter what functions will be lost ?

    Why would you do this and lose the data that is on the system control panel (which you must have) or the new combox if you use the XW hybrid. Stick with one company and save yourself or your significant other the stress. You would have a panel for the XW and one for Outback???
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    drraptor wrote: »
    If it is paired with Schneider's Hybrid inverter what functions will be lost ?

    Anything to do with data to/from the inverter. The FNDC becomes a pretty expensive battery monitor at that point unless you have a lot of FM controllers to work with.

    When you have a need for component integration staying with all one company that provides a com system between components makes sense. If you have mismatched components to begin with it will never be ideal. For total integration the OB stuff does as vtMaps says "a few tricks that even MidNites can't".

    Trying to get different components from different companies to 'talk' would be a nightmare requiring an external computer and custom programming to 'translate' between units. Not all of the systems are open either, which means you'd have to 'crack' their code first. Not worth the headache as Dave said.
  • drraptor
    drraptor Solar Expert Posts: 218 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    what are the advantages of Outback system (including FNDC) over Midnite system ?:-) The advantage I see of Midnite is low fan noise. :cool:

    The problem in Pakistan is we do have official support available for Schneider and MorningStar by 2 different solar installers. While Midnite CC are also available, even I saw MIDNITE SOLAR CLASSIC 250KS in the local market. While outback's unit are imported if someone specially requests it.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    Midnite is actively adding functions to their controllers via software--Typically easier software upgrades/native Ethernet connection. A nice/simple/low cost integrated battery monitor option. Currently, Midnite does not offer any AC inverters (I don't know any of their plans for the future). Overall, probably easier field maintenance. Higher input Array input voltage options (can use thinner copper wire between array to charge controller--Very nice if you have a long distance from array to controller+battery bank).

    Outback--Makes both charge controllers and AC inverters--So better integration between both. Need to buy a "Mate" to allow you to perform detailed programming of the charge controllers/AC inverters. Most people need to return MPPT controller to repair depot for firmware upgrades (mature product, should not need upgrades for most installations--I would guess).

    Both Midnite and Outback have pretty active Internet forums.

    Most vendors make a lot of their money from "optional" equipment (controllers/interface/LCD display modules, remote battery temperature sensors, etc.). Make sure you price out "all the options" you may need when comparing prices.

    -Bill

    PS: I think the Midnite 250KS (thank vtMaps) classic is no longer offered for sale.

    http://www.midnitesolar.com/printProduct.php?product_ID=259&productCatName=Charge%20Controllers&productCat_ID=21
    Effective January 1st the Classic 250KS will be discontinued due to low volume and increased support.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • drraptor
    drraptor Solar Expert Posts: 218 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    Thanks BB. Midnite Classic 250 could have been imported before 1st January 2014.

    For the comparison I found this old thread http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?13531-Outback-FM80-versus-Midnite-Classic-150, it seems (at least in 2011) OutBack's customer support is/was not up the mark.

    How is Midnite's customer support, any user of midnite's equipment around on the forums ?
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    drraptor wrote: »
    How is Midnite's customer support, any user of midnite's equipment around on the forums ?

    Best in the industry. Several of their engineers are active on this forum and they have a great forum themselves. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • drraptor
    drraptor Solar Expert Posts: 218 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Best in the industry. Several of their engineers are active on this forum and they have a great forum themselves. --vtMaps
    Is the boB in this thread, the actual founder of both Outback and Midnite ? http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?11806-Midnite-Classic-150-vs-Outback-80/page3
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    Yes, boB and Robin. And "halfcrazy" is Ryan -- All from Midnite (and other places along the way).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150
    BB. wrote: »
    PS: I think the Midnite 250 volt classic is no longer offered for sale.

    The Classic 250KS was discontinued. AFAIK the Classic 250 is still for sale. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • drraptor
    drraptor Solar Expert Posts: 218 ✭✭
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    I guess I will have to find out what the "KS" means someday. :blush:

    Thank you vtMaps for the correction/clarification.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • drraptor
    drraptor Solar Expert Posts: 218 ✭✭
    Re: MPPT 80 or MPPT 60-150

    comparison chart
    Attachment not found.
    and graphs http://www.midnitesolar.com/images/classicFrontPage/graphs.php

    250KS can support batteries upto 120V i.e 10 x 12 volts batteries in series.