Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

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HX_Guy
HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
For the members who have APS for their electric, how do the production numbers that your system reports compare to what APS is reporting on their end?

I'm talking to someone who has a Solar City system and says that their numbers are off by 20%, as in their system says they are producing 20% more than what APS is showing as coming in. Is that normal or something they should look into?
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    I haven't noticed any discrepencies on the solar production numbers but do have a customer where the new meters have me mystified. The online accounts now have very detailed data for kWh usage and kW demand. Daily numbers for the usage and 15 minute resolution for demand. However, when I add up the demand numbers and divide by 4 to give kWh, it seems either the usage chart is 4 times too high or the demand data is 4 times too small. Been talking to APS billing minions and grudgingly get a "I see what you mean", but "you must be misunderstanding the demand chart". right. It is always wonderful dealing with a monopoly.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    Quick guess for how a factor of 4 might come in:

    Listing the average wattage used during the 15 minute period versus listing the total watt-hours used during that same period.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    For the members who have APS for their electric, how do the production numbers that your system reports compare to what APS is reporting on their end?

    I'm talking to someone who has a Solar City system and says that their numbers are off by 20%, as in their system says they are producing 20% more than what APS is showing as coming in. Is that normal or something they should look into?

    So how does your system know what went to APS and what was used locally? I see the new smart meters that APS has added to the solar production feed but it is unclear where that data goes and how it is used. I certainly don't see anyplace on the APS site that seems to inform of that data.

    Sorry Oh my they have change the site I think. Hmmm they are congratulating me for my conservation, I think the data for last year is a mess but it sort of lines up with the TED history.

    This certainly looks like a way to "tax" your production somehow if allowed.
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    Just to follow up on this issue, I had a meeting with a local utility engineer and showed him how the new charts and data (resulting from their new "smart" meters just installed) from their website did not make sense. Got the "our data could not possibly be wrong" attitude for about an hour but finally got him to agree to look into it. Well, apparently he did as the demand chart/data just changed to resolve the discrepancy. Now am working on how to prove to him they have had the wrong CT in the meter for this service and it has been reading 4 times too high for years.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    For the members who have APS for their electric, how do the production numbers that your system reports compare to what APS is reporting on their end?

    I'm talking to someone who has a Solar City system and says that their numbers are off by 20%, as in their system says they are producing 20% more than what APS is showing as coming in. Is that normal or something they should look into?

    The TED says I had 12 kWh excess in May, APS says I had 59 kWh excess, this is within about 2% of the total consumed of 2059 kWh as reported by the TED. The TED has some adjustment in the CT ratios that I never bothered to mess with as 1% or 2% is just at the noise level in my book. If their meter #1 CT is off 1%, their meter #2 CT is off 1% and my CT #1 and #2 and #3 and #4 are off 1% it is just not worth chasing and certainly it's futile arguing with the Utility over it.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    Odd because when they first started putting the Smart Meters in here the first thing people noticed was that the meter read wrong - even without solar. I believe California had the same problem initially.

    I wonder if it ever occurs to them that in their quest to make billing completely incomprehensible they not only can fool customers to the utilities' advantage but could also obfuscate losses the company is suffering without knowing? You can bet they'd never hear a complaint from a user whose bill went down suddenly.
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    In my customers case, my TED shows steady nighttime security light usage of 250 watts. Their old demand readings were in line with this but the usage readings were 1kwh for the same hour. I actually downloaded the 15 minute resolution utility data for the whole month and even assuming the actual power level was the same as demand level - over the whole month, the billed usage came to 4 times what the demand data came to. Well, after bringing this to their attention what happens? they "fixed" the problem by changing the demand data so now it agrees with the erroneous usage data. This situation did not change with the new "smart" meter. They've been overcharged for years (>$20,000) I figure. Can't get them to do anything about it. Came out once and "tested" the meter ("yup, tested good" according to the uncooperative lineman) so I conclude the problem has to be the CT on this meter is the wrong one somehow.
    Any suggestions on how to prove to the utility they have a problem? They weren't too impressed by my TED data. Saturday night I think I'll go shut off everything except one large load, document the usage, current, load ratings etc. and wait a couple days to see what the online utility data says. The revenue meter itself has a multiplier of 80 so it takes hours and hours just to click over one count, so I'm happy about these new meters and the online data they provide. Cant wait to see them eat crow on this mistake.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #9
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    Somebody (here, in the newspaper?) did exactly that. The lineman came out, shutdown all the loads and plugged in a 1.5 kWatt electric heater and just stood there for an an hour or so and watch the utility meter run. Got 3. kWH for 2 hours and was done...

    Problem is that these are communicating electronic meters with lots of software everywhere. The meter could be measuring wrong, could be logging wrong, could be sending it wrong, could get a glitch when sending, could be received wrong, could be totaled wrong, could be laid against the tariff wrong, could be billed wrong... Add time of day, software stack issues, etc.... It is a mess to verify each link in the chain. Let alone for a customer to "validate or fail" anything on the utility's side.

    I would ask the utility if they have a consulting electrical engineering firm they recommend--Call them to measure you power readings and see what happens.

    Early on, there were reports of 15 minute (I think residiential reporting is 1 hour in California) errors in transmissions--Customer called the utlity and said I did not use 10 kWH in one hour--Utility said "don't worry, it will "auto-correct". It did not, utility ignored--last I heard.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    I've got an interest problem with my APS smart reader, and it's actually in my favor it seems.

    For one reason or another, it doesn't register all the usage on some days. It happened just a few days ago on June 4th and also last month on May 5th.

    aps1.jpg

    aps2.jpg
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    Yes, I'm seeing dropouts in the data like that as well. I think it is just in the displayed data not in the cumulative monthly kWh.
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  • KozmoK
    KozmoK Solar Expert Posts: 42 ✭
    #12
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    Re: Attn Phoenix APS customers: System production numbers vs APS numbers

    HX_Guy, Yeah mine is missing June 4 too - Their data dump for that day must have messed up.

    Attachment not found.
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