micro inverter

not_me0206
not_me0206 Registered Users Posts: 1
I am looking into panels up at my house. I been looking into all kinds of thing with people saying all kinds of things. I am trying to grow on what I now know. I am poor so I will say that up front I don't have the money to be spending on what I don't need. I think getting started will be the hardest part of it. but you will know the best. I have been looking at all kinds of ways to do solar panels and to this day I don't know if it will be a good way or not.

First I been looking around at pole mounted solar array with a sun trackers. I been told that this is not a good idea for cost. But cant it be made by me and not cost much? And is there a code on making it if so? and are permits needed to do it? I wanted to be able to munt 6 panels on the panel. I have more to ask here but will ask in a few.

Next I have been looking at micro inverters I see there are a few good looking ones What ones will be the best for the money? I been looking at the Enphase but now I have seen SolarBridge And they are all wired up and they look good.

After I have the panels plugged into each other and I mount a junction box to the pole can I put the 20 amp breaker at the junction box? Then run my wire down the pole? Now that I have run the wire down (by the way I was thinking 10 gage wire but I just want the max power I can get) can I run it to a Breaker box right there on the ground? I plan on adding more arrays around there later just not to start. Can I use that breaker box to wire in the other pole mounted arrays as I put them up? If so what gage wiring would I need to run from the breaker box on the ground to the main breaker box at the house? Over doing it would be better than under. And If not known could some one tell me how I could do the math to see?

I know I can not hook up to the power grid. But what more cant I do myself?
And I do to put a cut off for solar at the power meter to? Is there something that can be put there that will cut power from the grid when it sees there in no power on the grid? Or is it by hand?

when and what kind of surge protector would I need?
I know I ask a lot but there are a ton I have not asked yet. Any info would be great. I am like a pre K kid right now. So teach me.

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: micro inverter

    Welcome to the forum.

    If money is in short supply don't spend it on solar. Spend it on conservation. That will pay back faster and more certainly.

    You can not install any type of grid-tie solar without planning, permits, and permission. It's the same hassle for one 200 Watt Enphase as for a 10kW central inverter. There are all kinds of code requirements that must be met, and these will vary from place to place. They will also set the rules for what you can install, where, and how. On the whole it is not a simple nor inexpensive process.

    My advice would be buy a Kill-A-Watt meter and start measuring the power consumption of everything you plug in to the wall. You may find you can shut some of it down (phantom loads) or get more efficient versions. Conservation is cheaper than generation.
  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: micro inverter
    not_me0206 wrote: »
    I am looking into panels up at my house. I been looking into all kinds of thing with people saying all kinds of things. I am trying to grow on what I now know. I am poor so I will say that up front I don't have the money to be spending on what I don't need.

    OK. Then my best advice would be to get some surplus 12V panels, a charge controller (PWM is fine) two T-105's and a 300 watt inverter. This will let you get started in solar without dealing with any permits, inspections etc. T-105's (golf cart batteries) are cheap so when you trash them - which you will - it won't be too much money lost. You can still burn down your house with such a system, so perhaps mounting it on a shed or outside or something would be a good idea.

    A system like this will let you generate a little power and you'll learn a lot about solar power generation.
  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: micro inverter

    This may help. It's a list of common first timer mistakes; it might save you a little trouble.
    ====================================================================
    Mistake #1 - "I just got a bunch of solar panels! How do I hook then up? I spent most of my money on the panels so the rest of the stuff can't break the bank."

    The Big Idea:
    I came across a cheap site on the Net and I got as many panels as I could, because these deals can't last! Getting enough panels must be 99% of the battle; the rest is just nuts and bolts and wires.

    Reason this is a bad idea:
    The inverters, batteries (if off grid) and the other BOS (balance of system) hardware can cost as much - in fact often costs more - than the panels themselves. You need lots of wire, since solar panels are usually mounted at least vertically distant from the load they are driving. The wire you need will often be expensive; for battery wiring you could easily pay a dollar an INCH for terminated cables. You need fuses or circuit breakers, DC disconnects that can handle high voltages and currents, inverters to use the power, charge controllers/batteries if it's off grid. You need a mounting structure that will keep your roof on your house and prevent those panels from becoming spinning 40mph battering rams in a bad storm. And all those things are very important if your goal is installing a safe system. Wiring and circuit protection are two things you CANNOT skimp on - and this is even more important for people experimenting with solar, because you're going to make mistakes.

    We see this question a lot because people see a good deal and buy a bunch of solar panels and want to make them work. Nothing wrong with that, but if you are money constrained, it's much better to buy half the number of panels and spend the rest on good inverters, batteries etc.



    Mistake #2 - "I just want to feed a little power back to the grid. I saw this grid tie inverter on Ebay for $99 . . . ."

    The Big Idea:
    Getting grid tie approval sounds like it's a pain in the butt, and I just want to generate a LITTLE solar without all that paperwork.

    Reason this is a bad idea:
    It's not hard to design a grid tie inverter that feeds power back to the grid. In some ways it's easier than designing a standalone inverter, since the impedance of a grid tie connection is much more constant, and you don't need to provide a time base. But there's a reason that grid tie inverters tend to cost a fair amount - they meet NEC requirements for power factor, safety and anti-islanding. And again, these things are even MORE important for experimenters than they are for professional installers, because experimenters are going to make mistakes - and you'll want that extra level of protection when you accidentally island your loads.

    Also, UL listed grid tied inverters are going to be part of any serious grid tie installation. You'll learn more about real installations by working with real hardware.



    Mistake #3 - "I don't want to do grid tie, I just want to charge a small battery bank with solar, run off that, then use the grid only when they get low."

    The Big Idea:
    Getting grid tie approval sounds like it's a pain in the butt, and this way I can avoid all that hassle and still generate most of my power via solar; just add a few batteries to my system.

    Reason this is a bad idea:
    Batteries are the biggest cost in any off-grid power system. Not because they are the biggest cost up front - but because they don't last long. Golf cart batteries will give you around 500 cycles discharging to 50%, which is around a year and a half of solar off grid usage. People don't want to replace their batteries every year and a half; it's heavy lifting, they're full of acid and lead, you have to recycle them, the new ones cost money, it's the dirtiest part of the system and you ruin your pants etc etc. So they find ways to make them last longer. They use larger cells that a) last longer to begin with and b) only have to be discharged to 30% (or some other lower number.) This extends their life.

    For people on the grid the answer is much easier - never cycle them. Use a hybrid inverter that keeps them float charged all the time while feeding excess power back to the grid. This allows batteries to last much longer. Telecom batteries in such applications (generally called UPS, or uninterruptible power system applications) can last twenty years because they are not cycled and kept at their "happy" state of charge. Only during the rare blackout do they see cycling.

    The reason Mistake #3 is a mistake is that it attempts to do the exact opposite of all of the above - it attempts to use a small battery bank and cycle it hard every single day. This means you'll go about a year between battery changes if you're lucky, and you'll be assured of a lot of heavy lifting and buying of new batteries.



    Mistake #4 - "I get like ten hours of sun a day so I shouldn't need a big system."

    The Big Idea: Since it's nice and sunny ten hours a day up here I should be able to generate close to full power ten hours a day - so I don't need as many panels.

    Reason this is a mistake:
    Equivalent sun hours refers to the total full power sun the system sees. Most systems really see full power for only a few hours a day; the rest of the time the sun is at an angle to the panels and shining through too much atmosphere to get to full power. Even tracking arrays only help a little with this. Thus 12 hours of daylight might give you only 6 hours of _equivalent_ direct sun - and direct sun is what you have to base your total energy output on. The NREL website has good maps that show you how much equivalent direct sun you can expect in various locations, and it's almost always less than you think it will be.



    Mistake #5 - "My neighbor has a two kilowatt system but he uses 600 kilowatts a month! That's not helping him at all."

    No Big Idea here. This is a common misconception; it confuses power (kilowatts) with energy (kilowatt-hours.) A two kilowatt system, if exposed to four hours of equivalent direct sun a day, will generate around eight kilowatt-hours of energy. Actually somewhat less due to efficiency losses in the wiring and inverter.



    Mistake #6 - "I don't want to run everything, just air conditioning and my efficient refrigerator."

    The Big Idea - It might be tough to run a whole house, but just a few appliances should be that much easier.

    Reason this is a mistake: Air conditioning, refrigeration, and pool pumps (if installed) are the biggest users of energy in a house. (Resistance heating can be an even bigger energy user, but it's madness to try to run resistance heating on solar electric systems.) A small standalone system is much better used to provide some LED lighting, backup power for laptops and radios etc. Even better, do a small grid tied system and offset some of the load from the bigger users.



    Mistake #7 - "This system is real expensive if I get it installed. But I looked online and panels are really cheap, so I'll do it myself to save money."

    The Big Idea - Greedy installers make solar way more expensive than it needs to be, so doing it myself will save me lots of money and make me energy independent from the bureaucratic power companies.

    Reason this is a mistake: Much of the cost you see on an installer's estimate has to do with the BOS components he will have to supply - heavy gauge wire, DC disconnects, racking etc. These are the easy to overlook pieces that you will need to install the system. Once you add all those in you'll see the actual labor costs are fairly low compared to the costs of the parts. Thus you really aren't saving that much.

    For people who really want to save money, AND have experience as an electrician, you may be able to find an installer who will let you do most of the work. They will take care of the parts that are dangerous (like wiring the DC disconnect) and annoying (like applying for permits and scheduling inspections) and leave you to drill holes, bend conduit and pull wires. In general you have to know someone very well to do this, because the installer won't want you to botch the rack installation then get sued when your roof leaks.



    Mistake #8 - "Why can't you combine solar-PV and solar hot water panels?"

    The Big Idea - If solar panels get hot anyway, why not cool them with water, then you can use the water for your hot water! That kills two birds with one stone.

    This is a not a bad idea but does not work for domestic hot water. To get 120F water in your tank your outlet water will have to be close to 130F - and that means the panels themselves have to be 140-150F. It _sometimes_ works for pool heating since panel outlet temps on a well designed pool system rarely rise over 90F, due to low water temperatures and high flow rates. This can keep the panels cooler and give you some heat. The drawbacks of this are increased complexity (two connections per panel) and safety issues (high voltage DC and water don't mix well.)
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: micro inverter

    Man that should be a sticky! Bravo :cool:
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,590 admin
  • jebatty
    jebatty Solar Expert Posts: 56
    Re: micro inverter

    I'm new to solar electric, made a decision last summer for a grid-tie system, realized that, although it would be possible for me to learn answers to all of your questions and more, plus insure I had a safe, dependable, well constructed system that my power company would approve, it made no sense for me to do this unless I planned on doing multiple systems to use the knowledge gained, and recover from expensive mistakes, in doing additional installs. The solution was simple: employ a consultant who designed a ground mount system that met my needs and an electrician/contractor experienced in installs. The result has been trouble free, quickly approved by the power company, and has exceeded my expectations. Since going active on Oct 28, 2013, today or tomorrow the system will pass the 2MW production mark, our electric bills have nearly disappeared due to grid buy-back, and the system pays against competitive investments of similar risk based on a net present value and tax analysis.

    I am a retired professional with a past career in high end estate planning. A client asked me if he could do his own estate plan by buying a computer program and doing some research. I asked him what he did for a living, and it was designing implantable devices for the heart. I asked him if I could design my own and bypass expensive medical procedures if I did some research. With that answer, he hired the professional for his estate planning.

    I suppose we all could do anything, but often it makes no sense (cents) to do so.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,590 admin
    Re: micro inverter

    I agree that for many (if not most) people, a professionally designed/installed Grid Tied (and even an Off Grid) system is a good solution.

    A professional with lots of experience and appropriate training/education can make anything look easy. I have a friend who is a retired machinist and he makes it look easy--Much to the chagrin of other "metal workers" that keep turning out scrap parts even after watching him do that job on the same lathe/mill.

    Add working with building/power company inspectors, climbing on roofs, and working with electricity--These are not weekend warrior installations.

    But even "newbies" can do with some education. Learning how to size the equipment and basic requirements for hardware/installation will help when picking a contractor and monitoring the progress of a job.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset