Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?

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392 megawatts, 173,000 heliostats, 347,000 mirrors, $2.2 billion investment and a $1.6 billion federal loan. These are the tremendous numbers surrounding the development and construction of the Ivanpah*solar thermal power*facility in the Mojave Desert, 40 miles south of Las Vegas. Such a plant, who can energizes up to 140,000 houses, is a massive solar energy →

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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?

    Just drove by Ivanpah this week. Pretty impressive. Lots more empty land around there too. The other kind of thermal plant that uses molten salt to store the heat and run through the night (like the new Solana plant) is even better because is dispatchable and therefore can displace coal plants totally.
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?

    The cost per watt makes no sense on ROI.
    A nuclear power plant will see a faster return, better yet PV will see a higher return.
    Plants like Ivanpah are maintenance and repair daily, the compounds used to generate, and store the heat are highly corrosive. Its on the same level of wind generation which goes nowhere unless its 50% to 60% subsidized.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    The cost per watt makes no sense on ROI.
    A nuclear power plant will see a faster return, better yet PV will see a higher return.
    Plants like Ivanpah are maintenance and repair daily, the compounds used to generate, and store the heat are highly corrosive. Its on the same level of wind generation which goes nowhere unless its 50% to 60% subsidized.

    Solar thermal and wind power have no waste disposal problems and costs. That is left out of the nuclear and fossil fuel per Watt costs, so the comparison is inaccurate.
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Solar thermal and wind power have no waste disposal problems and costs. That is left out of the nuclear and fossil fuel per Watt costs, so the comparison is inaccurate.


    They don't generate enough power per cubic yard that no one would care "if" there was a disposal process.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #6
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?

    The problem with present nuclear plants, from the little I have read about the issue, is that they were "encouraged" by the government(s) to be uranium type plants because their "waste stream" included plutonium that was easy (and now relatively cheap) to reprocess into nuclear weapons.

    There are other types that use other types of fuels that are less dangerous to operate and don't have as much or as highly radioactive wastes (thorium reactor is one that is being kicked around).

    A very interesting subject and will be hotly debated in the decades to come (I read that China in very interested in thorium reactors).

    Not sure if "nuclear" is the end all for cheap and plentiful power--But it sounds worth researching our options.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?
    BB. wrote: »
    The problem with present nuclear plants, from the little I have read about the issue, is that they were "encouraged" by the government(s) to be uranium type plants because their "waste stream" included plutonium that was easy (and now relatively cheap) to reprocess into nuclear weapons.

    And oh hasn't that come back to bite them. :roll:
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #8
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?

    "They" don't care. It is all about control.

    Many of the worst environmental problems were created and/or abetted by governments.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?
    BB. wrote: »
    "They" don't care. It is all about control.

    Many of the worst environmental problems were created and/our abetted by governments.

    -Bill

    This is true, and continuing.

    But to return to topic, if we just abandon solar-thermal now it will never get any better than it is. Imagine the world today if upon evaluating the low efficiency of the first generators we had just said "this isn't going to work" and dropped electricity altogether.

    By the same token those who would have us abandon oil altogether have little understanding of how our dependance on it goes beyond driving around in cars. Plastics derived from oil make up not only the incredibly frustrating clam-shell packaging but also many pieces of cheap, sterile, life-saving medical equipment. (Something I'm all too familiar with.) If we suddenly turn off oil now, people will die by the thousands each day.

    You have to have a plan and that plan needs to be long-term and well-thought-out. Since the people who make these plans are in this instance politicians - we have a problem.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #10
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?

    Ro-Ro... Problems in Sun City:

    World's largest solar plant applying for federal grant to pay off federal loan
    After already receiving a controversial $1.6 billion construction loan from U.S. taxpayers, the wealthy investors of a California solar power plant now want a $539 million federal grant to pay off their federal loan.
    "This is an attempt by very large cash generating companies that have billions on their balance sheet to get a federal bailout, i.e. a bailout from us - the taxpayer for their pet project," said Reason Foundation VP of Research Julian Morris. "It's actually rather obscene."
    The Ivanpah solar electric generating plant is owned by Google and renewable energy giant NRG, which are responsible for paying off their federal loan. If approved by the U.S. Treasury, the two corporations will not use their own money, but taxpayer cash to pay off 30 percent of the cost of their plant, but taxpayers will receive none of the millions in revenues the plant will generate over the next 30 years.
    ...
    According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the plant produced only about a quarter of the power it's supposed to, a disappointing 254,263 megawatt-hours of electricity from January through August, not the million megawatt-hours it promised. A NRG spokesman blamed the weather, saying the sun didn't shine as often as years of studies predicted.

    I guess we little guys are doing it wrong (paying for solar with our own money).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Solar Thermal Farms: Popularity Fading?

    NRG spokesman said not enough sun????? Wow that guy needs to be fired... We've been in the worst drought in 25 years, and he says there wasn't enough sun... The truth is its a engineering nightmare...

    All of my photovoltaics have over produced 17% higher than PV watts estimates calculated at 86% system efficiency.... My clients are happy and getting paid...

    Chances are they won't get the grant. Republicans took over and they are cutting funding to everything across the board. Its almost Ironic that they filed for the grant, right when senate switched to majority republican..LOL
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