TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

Okay, so I have posed this question to both TED tech support and Outback Power and both basically say they aren't sure how to do this / point to one another. Here it goes:

I'm trying to figure out how to use the TED 5000 that I purchased to monitor my home and solar output. I want it to monitor both my home consumption and the (AC) solar production with my Outback Radian GS8048 inverter system. I know with a simple grid-tie solar install, this is easy and you just set one MTU on it's output and set it up as generation, and the other one on the utility connection and set it up as adjusted load.

However, this gets trickier with the Radian. The Radian has both AC Out and an AC In connections coming out of it. The AC Out is 240v going to (in my case two) load panels. The AC In goes to a 50A breaker in the main panel. The AC Out is always output and it's power comes from one of two sources- the DC solar system output that's inverted to AC when the sun is shining, and what it lacks is 'purchased' from the utility via the AC In connection. When the solar system is producing enough to power all of the loads on the AC Out, it starts 'selling' by feeding power back through the AC In connection into the main panel (and if all of the loads on the main panel are met) back into the grid. So in other words that AC In circuit is truly bi-directional- it can go either to the grid or from it.

So what I did was to put the 'generation' MTU clamps around two cables each- one clamp around the black leg of the 'AC In' and the black leg of the 'AC out' and the other clamp around the red leg of the AC In and the red leg of the AC Out. My thought process was to be able to take into account any AC production from the inverters- that's really what I'm looking for- tracking anything the inverter outputs whether that goes to the AC Out loads (critical load panels) or to the AC In to backfeed the grid and main panel. I realize that it will be wrong when the grid is down and the batteries are being inverted, as that would be counted as 'generation' but that's acceptable.

Is this the 'right way' to do this or is there a better way? I figured surely I'm not the first person to install a TED on a Radian- but maybe so. :-)

I don't believe this configuration is working properly. Right now the Radian shows it's generating 4200 watts and the TED shows only 1500w on that MTU.

I'm hoping I can get some help on the forum as to how to accomplish this. Thanks in advance!

Comments

  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    I am not sure about how the TED would handle the bidirectional nature of the radian. This would be a good question for TED tech support.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    First double check that the red dots on the MTU are both pointed the same direction. If one is flipped it will screw it up.
    Second perhaps a third MTU will be required to make the measurement.

    Can you make a sketch/line drawing of the power flows?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    Can the "higher end" TED systems actually measure direction of power flow (need both Current Transformer and Voltage measurement to determine direction of power flow)?

    I could not tell from their documentation--It sort of looked like could have "assumed" directions (loads always consume current, GT sources always provided current) rather than being able to actually determine direction of power flow (although, the more I think about it, TED must not do that, but actually measure direction of AC power flow).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    Make sure you have not crossed the "CT's" one pair needs to be on AC In which appears to be your Main and one CT pair on AC Out is generation if I am reading correctly. Also, as mentioned the Red Dots on them need to be facing the correct direction. Need to verify displayed reading in TED Footprints or on display with anticipated results. If incorrect turn them both around of the pair. System gets it voltage sense from the MTU that is connected to a circuit breaker.

    A drawing of what you have connected would help. Of your whole system from the utility to Radian
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
  • kb9okb
    kb9okb Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian
    solar_dave wrote: »
    First double check that the red dots on the MTU are both pointed the same direction. If one is flipped it will screw it up.
    Second perhaps a third MTU will be required to make the measurement.

    Can you make a sketch/line drawing of the power flows?

    Yes, the red dots are going the same direction. The numbers do seem to be going in the correct direction, i.e. generation is shown correctly as a negative number, the problem is that the number seems to be much lower than I expected. Either the Mate 3 or the TED is lying considerably. The Mate 3 numbers seem more realistic, though I'm assuming it's still listing the DC side, i.e. not after the inversion loss, though I don't expect that to be more than about 10%. So in other words I would expect something like 3500+w when the Radian says it's making 4000+ watts. Instead the TED is only showing like 1500w... clearly something isn't right.

    Here is the 'drawing' you requested :)

    50A Breaker in Main Panel <
    (direction of flow when selling)
    AC IN
    (direction of flow when buying)
    > Inverter

    Critical Load Panel(s) <
    AC OUT
    < Inverter

    Thanks
  • kb9okb
    kb9okb Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    SkiDoo- thanks, I think you're missing how I have it setup..

    One MTU/CT is in my main panel, on the leads coming in from the utility meter to the panel. (this MTU is configured for adjusted load)

    The other MTU is in the inverter box with one of the clamps around BOTH the AC IN L1 and AC OUT L1 and the other clamp around BOTH the AC IN L2 and AC OUT L2 (this MTU is configured for generation)

    For the drawing requests, maybe these videos of how my system is configured will help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VzfG9Glpvo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJpywESWo84 I have it all on the marker board in the first video.

    Thanks
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    First try just clamping around AC IN and see if it is more like what you expect. See if it gives bidirectional data. I am think that you will need a third MTU for your AC OUT.
  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    Agree he should not have set of CT's around both AC In and AC out the currents will interact with each other and give erroneous readings. Either missed it about having CT's on main to meter, was wondering if that had been missed.
    Agree with sola Dave you to move CT's to only capture either In wires or Out wires and as suggested add another set of CT's and MTU to the system. You might have to play with TED settings to get it to display the real net. Not familiar with the Radian so don't fully understand it's output. I have convention GT inverters with only one direction of output. May have to download manual and do some reading.
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
  • kb9okb
    kb9okb Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    I appreciate your comments...

    solar_dave: I don't think the TED will do bidirectional data, and more importantly- I do not want bidirectional data in this case- I want only to record generation. I do not want that MTU to report power coming FROM the grid, because it's already measured by the MTU in the main panel.

    SkiDoo55: All the documentation I find on current clamps indicate that multiple cables within one clamp is proper use provided it's on the exact same phase. A third MTU wouldn't add any capability here, unless I'm missing something.

    All of that said I think I found the solution. For some goofy reason I was only paying attention to the AC IN and AC OUT coming from the inverter box... but inside the inverter box I can get direct access to the connections coming straight off of the transformers- L1, L2, and neutral off of each transformer. So I put one clamp around both L1's and the other clamp around both L2's. This should give me TRUE inverter output- which is what I was looking for the whole time, and I don't have to mess with the bidirectional nature of the AC IN. As previously mentioned, these are technically inverter/chargers so under certain circumstances (bulk battery charging from grid/generator) the inverters will operate in charge mode and the current will go backwards, i.e. from AC to DC- but if I understand the TED correctly, it won't count that as flow in that direction should be ignored by the clamps/MTU due to their directional nature.

    Anyway, I'll give this a shot, I'll bet this solves the problem completely, though now I have to wait for a nice sunny day to know for sure, and right now the panels are covered with snow, argh.

    Thanks Again!
  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    Re: TED 5000 Monitoring Outback Radian

    That should work better. I will need to do some testing on opposing current through a single CT to see what it shows. I believe I have seen positive and negative signed numbers coming from my installed CT's on my system.
    whis we had some snow up in the mountains here, my snowmobiles haven't been out of the trailer since last year. We have less than 10% of normal snow/rein for this year. Only thing on my panels is dust!

    all the best
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!