Future PV tech rant…

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  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    #32
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    northerner wrote: »
    The key being in implementing the plants throughout all communities, would allow each community to be self sufficient and not dependent on power imported through a power line. Power lines could still be useful in some areas, where plants located in sunny areas, could supply power to cloudier locations.

    Right - and solar especially may INCREASE the need for transmission lines, since it is very intermittent. The only way around that is storage, and storage is not growing anywhere near as fast as solar. Thus for the near future we will need more transmission not less.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    A short while back there was great fanfare about the town of Field, BC getting the first Community-sized Sodium-Sulpher Salts electrical storage facility and it was being supported by BCHydro, as a test for isolated communities, they have one line in and one line out and have frequent snowslides each year, some taking out the line(s)...

    nothing much heard since then, I guess it is still in test mode......https://www.bchydro.com/energy-in-bc/projects/field-battery.html
     
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #34
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    No place like B.C. to test things! 100 degree Celsius temperature swings, snowfall measured in meters, winds up to 100 KPH. It's a wonderful test bench. :D
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #35
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Curiously power loss in transmission is one of the big problems with the grid. Inefficient storage is another.

    Sound familiar? Just like off-grid, only multiplied by a few million. :p

    Yes, but that inefficiency would be accounted for in the design of a solar power plant. The main point is getting off of fossil fuels. The sun shines on a fairly regular basis in many places. Why not tap into that clean source of power?
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #36
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    bill von novak wrote: »
    Right - and solar especially may INCREASE the need for transmission lines, since it is very intermittent. The only way around that is storage, and storage is not growing anywhere near as fast as solar. Thus for the near future we will need more transmission not less.

    There are plenty of storage options, and the storage capability will only get better and cheaper with time. I'm off grid and I don't need any transmission line whatsoever!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #37
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    northerner wrote: »
    There are plenty of storage options, and the storage capability will only get better and cheaper with time. I'm off grid and I don't need any transmission line whatsoever!

    Oh? How does that NG for your generator get to your house?

    Let's be honest here; total solar power is not practical for the vast majority. Inefficient solar panels and inefficient storage are the big obstacles, and wishing won't change that. we're up against the laws of physics here, so don't expect miracles anytime soon.

    But in those places where it is practical the more it is implemented the more economic burden in takes off those without the ability to use it by lowering conventional power costs due to decreased demand. In theory, anyway. In practice for-profit utilities will simply see it as an opportunity to make more money.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Oh? How does that NG for your generator get to your house?

    I was referring to electrical transmission lines. Not sure if you read my previous post, but I did state use of a solar power station with storage AND with backup from a natural gas power plant for days when solar is not sufficient.
    Let's be honest here; total solar power is not practical for the vast majority. Inefficient solar panels and inefficient storage are the big obstacles, and wishing won't change that. we're up against the laws of physics here, so don't expect miracles anytime soon.

    I think it is practical to put in solar power plants. The real problem is there isn't the will power to make such a change. Power companies are too concerned about profit.
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  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    #39
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    northerner wrote: »
    There are plenty of storage options, and the storage capability will only get better and cheaper with time.

    Not so sure about that. That's been a problem going on 100 years now, and the advances have been incremental rather than revolutionary. Indeed, the "real" cost of a kilowatt-hour of storage, adjusted for inflation, hasn't changed much in the past 40 years. Hopefully that won't be true forever.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    bill von novak wrote: »
    Not so sure about that. That's been a problem going on 100 years now, and the advances have been incremental rather than revolutionary. Indeed, the "real" cost of a kilowatt-hour of storage, adjusted for inflation, hasn't changed much in the past 40 years. Hopefully that won't be true forever.

    There's plenty of research going on in the energy storage field, and a number of storage options look very promising. As storage becomes more common place, the cost will go down.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #41
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    Here's an example of a large photovoltaic plant located in Ontario, Canada.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarnia_Photovoltaic_Power_Plant

    It is grid tied, and has a power capacity of 97 mW and generates 120,000 mwhr's of energy per year!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #42
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    northerner wrote: »
    Here's an example of a large photovoltaic plant located in Ontario, Canada.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarnia_Photovoltaic_Power_Plant

    It is grid tied, and has a power capacity of 97 mW and generates 120,000 mwhr's of energy per year!

    Imagine how much power it could produce if they had built it somewhere that actually gets sunshine! :p
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #43
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    Jeez, that plant is closer to Cuba, by ~ 450 Km (~280 miles), than a lot of the States! :confused:
    oH, YA, The Golden Triangle...

    correction : should have been 666KM = ~ 413Miles...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
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    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    westbranch wrote: »
    Jeez, that plant is closer to Cuba, by ~ 450 Km (~280 miles), than a lot of the States! :confused:
    oH, YA, The Golden Triangle...

    huh??????:confused:
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #45
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Imagine how much power it could produce if they had built it somewhere that actually gets sunshine! :p

    well at least it is near the southern most portions of canada, i can appreciate what you mean though as it lies about 3 degrees more north than me and could be prone to some of the more far reaching lake effect weather patterns.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #46
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    Hi Niel, it is at ~43 degrees lat, 6 degrees S of the 49th parallel.
    1 degree = ~ 111Km http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude#The_length_of_a_degree_of_latitude

    OOps I made a small multiplication error, it Should be 666Km not 450... So that would be 413 miles...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #47
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    ok so the first part is now making sense.

    "oH, YA, The Golden Triangle..."

    what golden triangle are you referring to as the closest one i know of is about 7 miles away from me and is at the point where the allegheny and monongahela rivers meet to form the ohio river in pittsburgh. i am at 40 degrees lat.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #48
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    that's a nickname for the lower part of Ontario where all the heat loving plants, tobacco, grapes, etc , that will not grow well in (most of) the rest of Canada, and can be grown easily since it is so far South... just draw a line from Montreal to the Great lakes, ie from the most eastern point on this map, in red, due west... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canada_Ontario_location_map_2.svg
    it makes a rough triangle...:roll:
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #49
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    Aka The Dragon's Head, a term which doesn't seem to be used anymore. :D
    "If you travel due South from Detroit, Michigan what's the first foreign country you come to?"
    Canada.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #50
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    China Television left out reason #6: it helps reduce the surplus population.
    That's almost a direct quote of Ebenezer Scrooge.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #51
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    ggunn wrote: »
    That's almost a direct quote of Ebenezer Scrooge.

    Bah! It's humbug, I tell you! Humbug! He stole it from me! :D
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #52
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Aka The Dragon's Head, a term which doesn't seem to be used anymore. :D
    "If you travel due South from Detroit, Michigan what's the first foreign country you come to?"
    Canada.

    gee i believe that would be cuba once out of the us and then after crossing a good bit of water.:roll: did you not mean north from detroit or did canada move?:p
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  • pechan
    pechan Solar Expert Posts: 92 ✭✭
    #53
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    I travel through Gillete, Wyoming about twice a month.
    This town has about a dozen or so large coal mines and half dozen or so Coal powered power plants.
    Skyline is clear as can be, some white smoke/ steam rising up from the plants.
    Clean Coal is a reality and 10x cheaper than solar or wind, I think we should continue to invest in
    coal technology as we have several centuries worth of coal available.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #54
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    niel wrote: »
    gee i believe that would be cuba once out of the us and then after crossing a good bit of water.:roll: did you not mean north from detroit or did canada move?:p

    Look at the map again, Niel; directly South of Detroit is Windsor, Ontario, Canada. :D
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  • mahendra
    mahendra Solar Expert Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    #55
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    For all that is said,Physics,returns,etc. I think our major problem is our selves.From what we know enough technology is there to make all this possible but it has a lot to do with the politics of selfishness which leads to corruption and fail funding to develop these technology further .It goes way up to the " noble prize winners" and our institutions that initiate such development of technologies.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #56
    Re: Future PV tech rant…

    British Columbia: you can produce solar electric here for $2 per kW hour, or you can buy the conventional power for $0.10 per kW hour. You don't see many solar installs here.

    There it is in a nutshell: new technology will only be widely adopted if it is financially practical.

    The Catch 22 is that new technology does not become financially practical unless it is adopted.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #57
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    British Columbia: you can produce solar electric here for $2 per kW hour, or you can buy the conventional power for $0.10 per kW hour. You don't see many solar installs here.

    There it is in a nutshell: new technology will only be widely adopted if it is financially practical.

    The Catch 22 is that new technology does not become financially practical unless it is adopted.

    I wonder what the cost to all of us will be if fossil fuels continue to be used at unprecedented levels?:confused: Germany is a world leader in photovoltaic use, and they are an example of what can be done if there is the will. They target to be 100% dependent on renewable energy for their electricity by 2050!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country (see the tables under Photovoltaics)
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #58
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    northerner wrote: »
    I wonder what the cost to all of us will be if fossil fuels continue to be used at unprecedented levels?:confused: Germany is a world leader in photovoltaic use, and they are an example of what can be done if there is the will. They target to be 100% dependent on renewable energy by 2050!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country#Canada (see the tables under Photovoltaics)

    There you get into the wishful thinking of politicians. They can set any kind of artificial goals they like, but if the technology can not meet them then the goals are irrelevant. They might as well say "we will stop using all fossil fuels tomorrow" because they have no idea if it is possible to meet whatever goal is set: it's just "feel good" trendy lip service to stay popular with the voting public.

    It would never occur to them to have a plan to implement alternative energy on a practical "as possible" basis because they don't have any idea what is involved.

    Three big problems with solar PV:

    1). Solar panels are only about 20% efficient at harvesting energy now. This needs to go way up. Not 1 or 2 percent better but 60% better.
    2). The sun does not shine all the time, making it useless in bad weather or at night no matter how efficient the generation.
    3). It will always have to harvest the total power need during the available daylight hours, and so mass storage of some kind is necessary.

    Number 2 is impossible to get around and can not be solved by throwing money at it. Number 1 and Number 3 there is hope for.

    By the way, you might also want to have a look at the amount of sunlight per square meter that hits the Earth over the available, usable surface area and compare that daily potential total power production with the rate of consumption today. I tried it, and it would appear we'd need an awful lot of PV to meet existing demands. Something like 1/3 of the Earth's surface covered in panels. I may have got the numbers wrong though. But it was 20,000+ terawatt hours of power per year in 2009.

    So I'd say a good place to start would be ... conservation, conservation, conservation.

    Never mind the need to get the whole world to agree on the plan.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #59
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    There you get into the wishful thinking of politicians. They can set any kind of artificial goals they like, but if the technology can not meet them then the goals are irrelevant. They might as well say "we will stop using all fossil fuels tomorrow" because they have no idea if it is possible to meet whatever goal is set: it's just "feel good" trendy lip service to stay popular with the voting public.

    It is through the use of technology that facilitates the evolution to something better and more efficient. The more that renewable energy is used, the faster it will become more efficient over time. And if the people of a country want something badly enough, change will follow, irregardless of politics.
    Three big problems with solar PV:

    1). Solar panels are only about 20% efficient at harvesting energy now. This needs to go way up. Not 1 or 2 percent better but 60% better.
    2). The sun does not shine all the time, making it useless in bad weather or at night no matter how efficient the generation.
    3). It will always have to harvest the total power need during the available daylight hours, and so mass storage of some kind is necessary.

    Number 2 is impossible to get around and can not be solved by throwing money at it. Number 1 and Number 3 there is hope for.

    I have solar panels on my roof which don't cover the entire surface and I'm covering close to 75% of my electrical needs in my home. So it doesn't necessarily take up a lot of extra space to make a difference.
    By the way, you might also want to have a look at the amount of sunlight per square meter that hits the Earth over the available, usable surface area and compare that daily potential total power production with the rate of consumption today. I tried it, and it would appear we'd need an awful lot of PV to meet existing demands. Something like 1/3 of the Earth's surface covered in panels. I may have got the numbers wrong though. But it was 20,000+ terawatt hours of power per year in 2009.

    I think you're implying that I was suggesting that solar PV will someday be able to provide all our electrical needs. What I was suggesting is that it can make a big difference in reducing our reliance on fossil fuels, along with conservation! Solar PV is only one part of the whole picture, which can make a big difference.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #60
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    northerner wrote: »
    It is through the use of technology that facilitates the evolution to something better and more efficient. The more that renewable energy is used, the faster it will become more efficient over time. And if the people of a country want something badly enough, change will follow, irregardless of politics.

    Unless the politics are such that the people are not allowed to want it.
    I have solar panels on my roof which don't cover the entire surface and I'm covering close to 75% of my electrical needs. So it doesn't necessarily take up a lot of extra space to make a difference.

    Ever seen an apartment building? Not every structure has the same square area to energy consumption ration available to a standard house.
    I think you're implying that I was suggesting that solar PV will someday be able to provide all our electrical needs. What I was suggesting is that it can make a big difference in reducing our reliance on fossil fuels, along with conservation! Solar PV is only one part of the whole picture, which can make a big difference.

    Reduced reliance on fossil fuels is already occurring. How far it can go is up against the obstacles I've mentioned. Although perhaps the biggest obstacle is not the technology as it is now but rather the obstructive attitude of the people who make so much profit off the status quo. And there you're back to the socio-economic argument neither side of which can be demonstrated with facts alone.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #61
    Re: Future PV tech rant…
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Unless the politics are such that the people are not allowed to want it.

    Reduced reliance on fossil fuels is already occurring. How far it can go is up against the obstacles I've mentioned. Although perhaps the biggest obstacle is not the technology as it is now but rather the obstructive attitude of the people who make so much profit off the status quo. And there you're back to the socio-economic argument neither side of which can be demonstrated with facts alone.


    The wife and I are prime examples of this, We added a 12.5 kW solar array a few years ago and put in solar thermal for DHW, upgraded all the electric appliances to Energy Star, converted to Nat Gas cook top, but 2 EREV cars. We have reduced our carbon foot print substantially, but the real driving force was to fix our energy cost in retirement. I have 17,000 miles on my Chevy Volt and only consumed 51.1 gallons of gasoline over 2 years, the wife is even better at on hers with about 15 gallons of gas consumed in just over 30 months. We still consume smallish amounts of fossil fuel but it has been hugely reduced. Our electric consumption has not really gone down lately but is mostly based on the solar.

    We really have the technology it is the will to follow that course.
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