mx60=full battery

gww1
gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
in Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum #1
I have an outback mx60 charge controller. I have the absorb set for 4 hours. I also have a fm80.

It is hard to get them to work together. The fm80 goes into absorb a bit later. The fm80 has a divertion load on it and by it going to asorb a bit latter it keeps the mx60 producing and keeps the devertion load on.

I had the mx going kind of crazy when hitting absorb and cutting back and not holding the voltage and continually sweeping due to new voc.

I fixed this a bit by putting a bigg hyst setting on the fm80 devertion so that when the mx did its sweep it came back with the divertion still on. Divertion first then mx60.

This helps but at some point the mx60 just says batt full. When it does this the fm80 cannot hold the absorb on its own. I have tried to force bulk and it starts up and then goes to full battery.

I will never get more then a two hour absorb like this not counting the 2000 watts that I don't have access to due to the charge controller stopping at full battery. Today I had to shut the divertion down so the fm80 could finish absorb when I had plenty of power to run it all and still cut back solar production if the mx60 was contributing.

Does anyone have any advice?
gww
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Comments

  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: mx60=full battery
    gww1 wrote: »
    The fm80 has a divertion load on it

    I totally don't understand your system... diversion loads are not needed for solar. You have wind turbines... diversion makes sense for them. You have the diversion on the FM80... is the FM80 being used as a wind turbine controller?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: mx60=full battery

    How do you have a diversion load on the FM80 alone?

    I think you're using the terminology wrong to start with. I diversion load is something used with wind/hydro to be sure there is always a place for energy produced to go once batteries are full. It would be controlled through a separate controller, with batteries feeding the input of that controller and the load on the output. The controller must be one designed to be used in this manner.

    You are probably meaning an opportunity load: one that is activated under certain circumstances in order to make use of any solar power available once the batteries are near or at full charge. This power would otherwise go unrealized. There is no way for this to be "on a controller" although it can be activated by one (the AUX port on Outback controllers for example).

    Otherwise both controllers take their respective arrays and charge the same battery bank. Their Voltage set points should be identical, as should their Voltage reading at the start of Absorb (so that both begin at the same time). Beyond that it should not matter which controller activates the load once the Voltage point is obtained as the two controllers should enter Absorb at nearly the same time.

    Voltages, however, will rarely be identical between two controllers. The V-drop over wires will vary, especially with different amounts of current coming from each. This is why you pick a "master" controller and let the other(s) simply contribute to Bulk charging. What they do in Absorb/Float becomes less relevant then.

    The only MPPT controllers that work well in multiples are the Classics using the "Follow Me" protocol. Outside of that your chances of success are better with two of the exact same controller (two MX60's for example). And with the Outbacks they work better if connected via HUB and MATE. Unfortunately the MX60's do not play well with other MPPT controllers. Some PWM controllers can confuse them during their sweeps too.

    When the 4 hour Absorb is up on the MX that's it; it tries to Float or if the Voltage drops significantly to reBulk. You can adjust the FM to match the MX but it is not likely to work the other way around.

    Frankly the best answer here is one you won't like: sell the MX and replace it with another FM.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: mx60=full battery

    I had similar things going on with my MX-60. It really, really helped when I disabled the automatic restarts ( on advice of one of the brothers on this forum) a couple of months ago. Don't see any downside to that yet. On the other hand, when it used to restart, it would wake up, see an absorb or near absorb voltage, assume the battery was full, display "battery full" and just sit there. Rarely does that any more, and when it does, the batteries really are full.
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: mx60=full battery

    vtmaps
    I have a divertion to use pvprodution that I would lose if I didn't put it some where. I originally thought it would help with the turbines also but now know that at max prodution in a 60 mph wind the turbines only put out 6000 watt hours for the day. normal loads would control them. I may build a bigger one though.

    I do get alot of hot water and still lose some solar prodution due to no where to go with it and making sure the battery is getting enough current early enough.

    I went to the outback site and was reading and may or may not have an answer to the full battery question. I have two options to try.
    !. Where you can set the minumum minutes I currently have zero. I will see how many minutes that it will go up to.
    2. I will set my float to absorb voltage. Maybe ok for short winter hours but will have to think of something different for summer.
    I am new so if anyone has ideals I would love to hear them.
    Thanks
    gww
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: mx60=full battery

    Coot and waynes...

    I must have been typing while you posted. I am using and opertunity load with an ssr although I think it is listed as divertion on the auxilary on the cc. Sorry for the confusion. I really need to use the mx60 rather then replace if possible. CASH. I have it close by lots of little things. Put the voltage comp on mx60 a little lower and set the fm 80 .1volt higher for absorb. Both are .2 volts higher then actual battery voltage with the fm80 voltage compensation maxed out. I check the battery to see what I am really getting. All readings are exactly the same at each item and at the battery the gages just read a bit different. They seem to be working mostly well together though every once in a while the mx goes a bit batty and I add a little adjustment to try and smooth it out. If I get the battery full adjusted I think I will be close though on cloudy days and at the end of the day the oppertunity loads may be using some of my gains before it compleetly shuts down. Waynes..;. I did read your thread and may try to disable the sweeps if I can't get anything else to work. I am really close to getting things to work well I think.
    Thanks
    gww
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: mx60=full battery

    GWW, did you get the battery fully charged off the grid? Its charge state may be having a slight effect here..
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
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    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: mx60=full battery

    westbranch.
    I used the grid for a 20 hour EQ. For the last two days I have been disableing the loads and re-connecting at 57 volts for 1/2 hour. Yesterday that gave me a 4 hour absorb at 61 volts. Today I will only get about 3 hour absorb. Tommorrow I am raising the load reconnect voltage to 58 volts in the hopes for a longer absorb. I disconnect the loads right at daylight and reconnect at 58 volts. I hope this answers your question. The sg was 1.275 at a little over 2 hour absorb while charging. It could be higher but is much better then being 100 percent discharged after the old absorb voltage.
    I don't have internet, so my answers are sporrotic.
    Thanks
    gww
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: mx60=full battery
    gww1 wrote: »
    westbranch.
    I used the grid for a 20 hour EQ. For the last two days I have been disableing the loads and re-connecting at 57 volts for 1/2 hour. Yesterday that gave me a 4 hour absorb at 61 volts. Today I will only get about 3 hour absorb. Tommorrow I am raising the load reconnect voltage to 58 volts in the hopes for a longer absorb. I disconnect the loads right at daylight and reconnect at 58 volts. I hope this answers your question. The sg was 1.275 at a little over 2 hour absorb while charging. It could be higher but is much better then being 100 percent discharged after the old absorb voltage.
    I don't have internet, so my answers are sporrotic.

    1.275 is almost the full SG. Do you get it when water level is high? If so, you may not get anything higher. If you get it at low water levels, then you probably need to push a llttle further to get full SG.
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #10
    Re: mx60=full battery

    northguy
    I filled at the end of the EQ. I filled to just touching the bottom of the vent tube. It took a little under 1 1/2 gallons. The reading was yesterday. Today at the 1 1/2 hour absorb point it was 1.260 when I left to my parents for thanksgiving dinner. Either way much better then I had been getting. Thanks for the water explination.
    gww
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: mx60=full battery

    Update
    Knock on wood, Since I put 239 minutes on the minumim time in absorb the charge controller is not going to full battery early. It still sweeps due to new voc but with my current settings is working very well with the fm80. I hope it last.
    Thanks
    gww
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  • Watt
    Watt Solar Expert Posts: 32 ✭
    #12
    Re: mx60=full battery

    Just curious as I may be reading you wrong but are you really doing a 20hr equalizing charge?

    From my understanding and my own observation, a true full bulk charge up to say 60v or whatever and then a true absorb charge for x time or until x finishing rate is reached is the only moment I will do an equalize charge. At that time, only an hour or two is required to raise the SG in the lagging cells and/or electrolyte mix is complete.

    You asked for suggestions, Check out the Midnite Classic charge controllers.

    Good luck
    Mike
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: mx60=full battery

    watt
    you did read me right. Shows how new I am. The sg's were still raising so I kept equalizing. Now that I have raised the absorb voltage, I hope to get by with 3 hours or so once a month. I know about the midnight classic but I bought all of my system used except the fm80. I bought it cause I thought with outback and the hub and mate that it would be easyier. I wanted the classic cause you can use them with wind turbines but I had enough solar for two controllers. I am going to try to make my stuff work and hope they last cause I don't make the kind of money I used to. They are old so may break any time.
    Thanks
    gww
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: mx60=full battery
    gww1 wrote: »
    watt
    you did read me right. Shows how new I am. The sg's were still raising so I kept equalizing. Now that I have raised the absorb voltage, I hope to get by with 3 hours or so once a month. I know about the midnight classic but I bought all of my system used except the fm80. I bought it cause I thought with outback and the hub and mate that it would be easyier. I wanted the classic cause you can use them with wind turbines but I had enough solar for two controllers. I am going to try to make my stuff work and hope they last cause I don't make the kind of money I used to. They are old so may break any time.
    Thanks
    gww
    As long as the SG's were Rising and it wasn't just for heat, you were doing the right thing. Time has nothing to do with Equalizing. The pores in the Lead in the plates no nothing about Time, use time for checking the SG' Level.
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  • Watt
    Watt Solar Expert Posts: 32 ✭
    #15
    Re: mx60=full battery
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    As long as the SG's were Rising and it wasn't just for heat, you were doing the right thing. Time has nothing to do with Equalizing. The pores in the Lead in the plates no nothing about Time, use time for checking the SG' Level.


    While there is no argument on this, a properly followed charging scheme will not adversely effect the capacity or longevity of a battery.

    Many manufactures suggest such proper schemes, just a quick search and a pick of the first on the list.

    https://www.crownbattery.com/faqs

    20hrs at equalize voltage could mean temperature runaway at the least. The finishing rate does have a purpose.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: mx60=full battery
    Watt wrote: »
    While there is no argument on this, a properly followed charging scheme will not adversely effect the capacity or longevity of a battery.

    Many manufactures suggest such proper schemes, just a quick search and a pick of the first on the list.

    https://www.crownbattery.com/faqs

    20hrs at equalize voltage could mean temperature runaway at the least. The finishing rate does have a purpose.
    It could also mean the Battery plates are clean , The SG's are at the correct level and the battery is at 100 % of capacity. Of course it based on the Corrected temperature of the Battery.

    You are Cherry Picking from something you read on the Internet. Since you did, this from there. I don't see anything about time.


    Determining if a Battery is Properly Charged

    If the battery charging equipment is functioning properly, and if the battery is in a healthy condition, there is little chance for an improperly charged battery. If some doubt about its operation exists, the following checks are a quick way of determining a proper, fully charged battery.

    1. Charging current readings will level off to the finishing rate.
    2. Charging voltage stabilizes.
    3. No rise in specific gravity.
    4. Normal gassing.
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  • Watt
    Watt Solar Expert Posts: 32 ✭
    #17
    Re: mx60=full battery

    "Cherry Picking" funny that one right there.

    " Cherry Picking " would be the waste of grid power to gas a battery pointlessly when a properly charged battery would get the SG near what the manufacture suggest. Then add water and watch the SG change and create more confusion. " Cherry Picking " Would also be the pointless hovering over a battery to insure the 20hr Equalize charge did not result in thermal runaway or dry cells had the cells been low all along. Equalize the battery for an hour, check the SG, confirm the numbers within range, if not restart an EQ charge for another hour. repeat. Point is, the battery is near 100% before the EQ stage is initiated. The " Cherry Picking " comment is kinda lame as we expect him to read our " these internet posts ".

    For one, gww1 will learn the " what he can get by with without the internet " by experience. At this point, he has come to the internet for experience as he had none but now has some.

    While you took that comment as an attach on your advice, nothing more was meant than to offer another of a million suggestions.

    Maybe I should have pointed out the economics of charging a battery at 25% efficiency instead of 60 or 70% or more. That is picking.
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  • Watt
    Watt Solar Expert Posts: 32 ✭
    #18
    Re: mx60=full battery
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    It could also mean the Battery plates are clean , The SG's are at the correct level and the battery is at 100 % of capacity. Of course it based on the Corrected temperature of the Battery.

    You are Cherry Picking from something you read on the Internet. Since you did, this from there. I don't see anything about time.


    Determining if a Battery is Properly Charged

    If the battery charging equipment is functioning properly, and if the battery is in a healthy condition, there is little chance for an improperly charged battery. If some doubt about its operation exists, the following checks are a quick way of determining a proper, fully charged battery.

    1. Charging current readings will level off to the finishing rate.
    2. Charging voltage stabilizes.
    3. No rise in specific gravity.
    4. Normal gassing.

    Then, there may then be no need for a EQ charge. My point exactly.

    " I don't see anything about time " that's because once SG doesn't rise it's time to cut off the charging.

    An equalize charge is not needed unless SG readings are points apart from each other and a normal charge does not correct. Of course, without a complete charge, you could not make that determination. Then the shortest EQ time required to remix or Equalize the charge is needed.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: mx60=full battery
    Watt wrote: »
    Then, there may then be no need for a EQ charge. My point exactly.

    " I don't see anything about time " that's because once SG doesn't rise it's time to cut off the charging.

    An equalize charge is not needed unless SG readings are points apart from each other and a normal charge does not correct. Of course, after a complete charge, you could not make that determination. Then the shortes EQ time required to remix or Equalize the charge is needed.
    This what you replied to :
    gww1 wrote: »
    watt
    you did read me right. Shows how new I am. The sg's were still raising so I kept equalizing.
    Now your changing the story.

    When he first started this he was dropping below 46 V with load and had low SG's. I Have no clue if 20 hrs is to much or not enough neither do you.
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  • Watt
    Watt Solar Expert Posts: 32 ✭
    #20
    Re: mx60=full battery
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    This what you replied to :

    Now your changing the story.

    Nope, not changing story....

    If the battery was fully charged before equalizing, the battery would not need a 20hr equalizing charge. ( That is my point ) whether you read something into it or not. Part of that point is, was he even at a what he was calling an equalize stage?


    " Now your changing the story.

    When he first started this he was dropping below 46 V with load and had low SG's. I Have no clue if 20 hrs is to much or not enough neither do you.

    "

    Nope, but a little " cherry picking " will let him know there are test appropriate to find out.

    Here is Rolls test . http://www.rolls-battery.com/content/technical-downloads?q=node/51&phpMyAdmin=2eda4dec0bd69647b9e3cf0f71e01d23&phpMyAdmin=9dec4a269d70t7a63be7c


    I'm not sure why you are on the defensive, but gww1 deserves as much insight as possible from everyone. No matter the good advice or the bad, he can draw his own conclusions.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: mx60=full battery

    Keep it civil, guys.

    Some of us read and understand this stuff very well, btw. I imagine by now gww1 is thoroughly confused by all the advice from different corners, some of it being not well-expressed.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,623 admin
    #22
    Re: mx60=full battery

    My best suggestion is to slow down the posts while the original poster is away from the board--We are all guessing from our points of view/understanding of GWW1's questions.

    When GWW1 comes back, he can tell us what he many need next in the discussion.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: mx60=full battery

    I appretiate all the advice, and am timid enough not to know how to handle things. I was charging at a rate that didn't bring the sg's up at all. I was also using large loads . I was trying to math it out from the gages I do have (no battery monitor or kill o watt meter). I have a kill-o-watt meter for individual items. When I moved whole cercuits I relie on observation and monitoring. I had did my second absorb at 61 volts for two hours before I started the 20 hour EQ. I had kept record from my initial commission charge. I did not have temp monitoring equiptment or the convertion chart when I recorded those sg's. I did keep track and records of the battery temp though. I did the 20 hour EQ till the sg's mostly matched those record and also seemed to be staying constant or even going down slightly. I do think it is idiotic for me to live with the batteries all the time but it seems to be what it takes to get things set correctly and to understand anomollies. I came here for an alturnative to the person's advice that I bought the batteries from cause I was sure with the low sg's I was in trouble. I understand his veiw was keep the bubbling and heat down except for once a month. I pick through suggestions and feel that I am on the right track till my next emergency. My sg's during spot checks are holding higher. I still don't see 1.285-1.295 but I am also not temp comping the sg's. I also still see cell variations but a 20 hour EQ did not fix that and the manufactuer seems to think things will level out. For better or worse, charging and discharging seem to be acting in a more consistant fassion.

    I also like the way the cc's are working now except for maby the oppertunity load taking the batteries back down a bit before going off. Even that doesn't hurt much if the excess being taken doesn't steal my abillities to run my loads and charge my battery well.

    We have solved some of my problims so I intend to keep coming back for more.

    Thanks
    gww
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #24
    Re: mx60=full battery

    BB
    I will be gone much more then I am here. I still have not gotten an internet connection and if I wasn't hunting I would not be at my parents as much as I have been. I like seeing responces to my treads cause most times I ask when I am feeling exspecialy paronoid that I am screwing up and can only look when I get access to a connection. I answer and give more info when I can so people have a chance to help me. I really like when I come back to post and the answer I was looking for is there. I am willing to bear the responcibility of having to try and pick the good from the bad. This is not to say your advice has no merit just that I used to live here and I am finding that harder to do untill I do get out of my cheep spell and get internet again.
    Thanks
    gww
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: mx60=full battery

    Your battery is in a much better place than it was a couple weeks ago with Low Capacity and Specific Gravity. There is no reason to have a 3 month old battery performing like someone's 10 year old battery, unless you want to deal with all those issues, you have plenty of years for that. How you manage the future is up to you. Good Luck.
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #26
    Re: mx60=full battery

    Blackcherry
    I am feeling much better about everything. I did get the answers or the avenues here that I needed to move more in the right direction. I may still screw it all up, but it is going to take me longer to do it now.

    thanks
    gww
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