Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

SolarPowered
SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
Yeah, I don't care if it was an accident. Thermal Runaway is not a laughing matter, and the stored power in those batteries is enough to make a large explosion with shrapnel.

Drunk driver in Mexico, crashed his car.

Video shows an explosion 15 seconds into the video.

Another reason why Lithium Phosphate, and Lithium Iron Magnesium, are much, much safer lithium batteries.. However Tesla sells the need for speed, not safety.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCn1CufaCYc#t=22
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  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    Another reason why Lithium Phosphate, and Lithium Iron Magnesium, are much, much safer lithium batteries.. However Tesla sells the need for speed, not safety.

    They're actually selling range. You don't need li-ion batteries for speed, only for range.
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  • jaggedben
    jaggedben Solar Expert Posts: 230 ✭✭
    #3
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    So a drunk driver crashed his vehicle and it caught on fire and then exploded.

    That could never happen with a gasoline powered vehicle. No way.

    Taken by itself the video really doesn't mean much.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    Warn me when the things start spontaneously bursting into flames while driving down the highway so that I can avoid them, as owning one will never be a problem for me.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    The explosion looks very small compared to the explosions of gas-powered cars we usually see in Hollywood movies :D
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    The explosion looks very small compared to the explosions of gas-powered cars we usually see in Hollywood movies :D

    For some reason Hollywood cars are always carrying explosives! It's a dangerous place to drive. ;)
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    bill von novak wrote: »
    They're actually selling range. You don't need li-ion batteries for speed, only for range.
    Tesla sells a high energy output lithium cobalt rated 90kWh, the car can consume up to 55kwh.There is enough energy to not only propel the car faster than most electrics but there is enough capacity to offer range as well.
    Most car manufacturers sell lower energy specific batteries under 40kWh.
    Tesla sells one of the largest lithium batteries compared to its competitors. Curb weight of the vehicle alone stands out. Tesla S curb weight is over 4647 LB, while most of the competitors curb weights are averaging around 3500 and 3800 LB.s. I believe the volt which is a hybrid generator and battery combo weighs in at 3781, and used a 16.5 kwh battery.the bigger the batteries capacity the more prone it can become to thermal runaway.
    Just the curb weight to me expresses the intense stopping power that is required for the car. This won't be the last of the fires. Realistically the curb weight of the vehicle requires a lot of stopping power, and it will make it more susceptible, to low impact collisions.
    you have to think even a minor collision could catch the battery on fire or cause explosion. Insurance for the cars are going to get ridiculous on monthly premiums just because of the fires.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    Just this past week there was an incident in Vancouver with a van catching fire after a crash. Heavy vehicle, yet outfitted with sufficient braking power - as are all vehicles proportionate to their size and weight as per regulation, which does not mean a semi can stop in the same distance as an econo box. Only an idiot would expect that to be possible.

    What made the crash so bad was the hundreds of litres of (stolen) gasoline inside the van.

    Before that we had a car explode that had (leaking) propane tanks inside it.

    Up here we have vehicles running on propane (and even a few on CNG) which can make for a big fireball in a crash.

    Electric vehicles pose no greater danger than fossil-fuel in this respect, and are in fact safer in most cases as minor collisions do not have the potential for leakage of inflammable liquid or gas.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    Tesla sells a high energy output lithium cobalt rated 90kWh, the car can consume up to 55kwh.

    Looks like an excellent battery pack for RE system. I wonder how much does such battery pack cost? And how long does it last?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #10
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    100,000 miles or 8 years (?) with 80-85% of capacity.

    http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/20/tesla-roadster-battery-banks-forecast-to-retain-80-85-charge-over-100000-miles/

    Looks like at least $32,000 for battery and $8,000 labor (for Tesla) to replace the battery bank (may be the 53kWH bank???).

    http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-motors-devastating-design-problem

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    BB. wrote: »
    100,000 miles or 8 years (?) with 80-85% of capacity.

    Looks like at least $32,000 for battery and $8,000 labor (for Tesla) to replace the battery bank (may be the 53kWH bank???).

    Thanks Bill.

    Looks like LA batteries still beat these by a wide margin both in terms of longevity and price.
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  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    Curb weight of the vehicle alone stands out. Tesla S curb weight is over 4647 LB . . . Realistically the curb weight of the vehicle requires a lot of stopping power, and it will make it more susceptible, to low impact collisions.

    2009 Cadillac Enclave curb weight: 4780 (and many cars are heavier)
    I don't think Enclaves are more susceptible to low impact collisions, although they probably do need better brakes than your average car.
    Insurance for the cars are going to get ridiculous on monthly premiums just because of the fires.
    Number of gasoline cars on the road: 250,000,000
    Gasoline car fires: 31,500 a year
    Odds of being in a gasoline car fire:1 in 7900

    Teslas on the road: 25,000
    Fires per year: 2
    Odds of being in a Tesla fire: 1 in 12,500

    So while insurance on a Tesla due to the risk of fire might be high, imagine how bad it is for gasoline car owners . . .
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    that number does not include the 'village idiot' (sort of) neighbour of mine that, even though I flagged him down and told him he should get out of his car as it was on fire, said "YA I Know! I'm in a hurry!'' and drove it home (1 block) and parked it in his car port....house caught on fire too!!! Glad he moved, only 3 houses away, but on the parallel street... duh...
     
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    bill von novak wrote: »


    Number of gasoline cars on the road: 250,000,000
    Gasoline car fires: 31,500 a year
    Odds of being in a gasoline car fire:1 in 7900

    Teslas on the road: 25,000
    Fires per year: 2
    Odds of being in a Tesla fire: 1 in 12,500

    So while insurance on a Tesla due to the risk of fire might be high, imagine how bad it is for gasoline car owners . . .

    It's not that bad for gasoline owners though because the valuation price of the car is practical. Tesla s even after tax credits is 50% higher in value than most practical priced gasoline vehicles. So the premium will be 3 times the cost that of a gasoline powered vehicle. Valuations are based on the price of the vehicle,and determined rate of liability. That alone would make the cost of a monthly insurance premium almost within the same realm of leasing a tesla monthly.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    westbranch wrote: »
    that number does not include the 'village idiot' (sort of) neighbour of mine that, even though I flagged him down and told him he should get out of his car as it was on fire, said "YA I Know! I'm in a hurry!'' and drove it home (1 block) and parked it in his car port....house caught on fire too!!! Glad he moved, only 3 houses away, but on the parallel street... duh...

    that makes me wonder how such people have managed to stay alive up until now. i have a niece like that who one day decided to do a barbeque inside the apartment with charcoal. she's still alive and you guessed it, she's blonde.:confused:
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  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    #16
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    so what you are saying, is that Tesla drivers can't push their cars off the road when they run out of energy.

    "Tesla S curb weight is over 4647 LB, while most of the competitors curb weights are averaging around 3500 and 3800 LB.s. ..... it will make it more susceptible, to low impact collisions."
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  • SolInvictus
    SolInvictus Solar Expert Posts: 138 ✭
    #17
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    Video shows an explosion 15 seconds into the video.
    When a car is on fire, the 4 tires and spare usually rupture sequentially with an explosive bang which could explain the explosion in the video.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    It's not that bad for gasoline owners though because the valuation price of the car is practical. Tesla s even after tax credits is 50% higher in value than most practical priced gasoline vehicles. So the premium will be 3 times the cost that of a gasoline powered vehicle. Valuations are based on the price of the vehicle,and determined rate of liability. That alone would make the cost of a monthly insurance premium almost within the same realm of leasing a tesla monthly.
    If you can afford a Tesla you can probably afford the insurance.
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  • SolInvictus
    SolInvictus Solar Expert Posts: 138 ✭
    #19
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Looks like an excellent battery pack for RE system.
    The Tesla Roadster and Model S's battery is composed of thousands of Panasonic 18650 Lithium ion batteries. Each battery is 65.2 mm long and 18.6 mm diameter making them a little larger than AA batteries. There are over 100 batteries in a series string and dozens of strings connected in parallel. It is a horrendously labor intensive battery array to assemble and complicated to monitor. The monitoring equipment puts a large continuous load on the battery array that discharges it completely, reportedly, in several weeks. Tesla's battery array is not ideal for any application and will pass into the history books as an overpriced bad idea.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    SolInvictus wrote: »
    The Tesla Roadster and Model S's battery is composed of thousands of Panasonic 18650 Lithium ion batteries. Each battery is 65.2 mm long and 18.6 mm diameter making them a little larger than AA batteries. There are over 100 batteries in a series string and dozens of strings connected in parallel. It is a horrendously labor intensive battery array to assemble and complicated to monitor. The monitoring equipment puts a large continuous load on the battery array that discharges it completely, reportedly, in several weeks. Tesla's battery array is not ideal for any application and will pass into the history books as an overpriced bad idea.

    I was thinking about something like this. If you buy these little li-ion batteries on eBay, it becomes quite affordable. The bad thing about this is that you need to literally monitor the voltage of every cell because if it deviates from others and goes too high or too low it may explode.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #21
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    Prismatic Lithium Iron Phosphate are cheaper and safe - no fire risk. A bit heavier but that's not an issue for a RE application
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #22
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    mtdoc wrote: »
    Prismatic Lithium Iron Phosphate are cheaper and safe - no fire risk. A bit heavier but that's not an issue for a RE application

    Does someone sell them?
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Does someone sell them?

    Sure- many places. Used quite a bit in DIY EVs and becoming more common for RE applications as well.

    Quick google search gave me THIS example.

    My next set of batteries will very likely be LiFePO4s 8)
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #24
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months
    mtdoc wrote: »
    Sure- many places. Used quite a bit in DIY EVs and becoming more common for RE applications as well.

    Quick google search gave me THIS example.

    My next set of batteries will very likely be LiFePO4s 8)

    Thank you. Looks like just a touch more expensive than lead-acid. I'll need to read more about them.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #25
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    When comparing prices there's a couple of things to keep in mind. You need to factor in the cost of a BMS - probably $500-1000 for a quality largish RE system sized bank. Also, you get more usuable energy storage per Ah since you typically discharge LiFePO 4s down to 20% SOC or so meaning an equivalent bank will be much smaller Ahr wize than LAs...
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    And a 3'rd fire was reported on last night's news. Also reported was a resulting drop in share value. Hope they get to the bottom of this before it's too late.
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  • SolInvictus
    SolInvictus Solar Expert Posts: 138 ✭
    #27
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    Third Tesla Model S Fire Prompts NHTSA Review, Daily Tech, Nov. 11, 2013
    According to The Detroit News, NHTSA will review what is now the third Model S to catch fire in under a two-month period. This most recent incident took place near Smyrna, Tennessee.

    The Tennessee fire took place when a Model S driver hit a tow hitch on Interstate 24, which damaged the car’s undercarriage and caused a fire. The driver was able to exit the vehicle safely.

    It seems like the 1/4 think metal plate protecting the underside of the batteries is too weak.
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #28
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    There are about 287,000 car fires per year in the US, with about 480 fatalities and costing over $1 billion in damages. I'm not too worked up over a few Tesla battery fires. I'll take a battery full of electricity over a tank full of gas anytime.
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  • SolInvictus
    SolInvictus Solar Expert Posts: 138 ✭
    #29
    Re: Second Tesla -S fire in under 2 months

    Are EVs More Prone to Fires Than Gasoline Cars?, Energy Trends Insider, Nov. 21, 2013
    However, in NFPA’s analysis of detailed data from 2003-7, fires resulting from collisions made up just 3% of the total. Various other factors caused the more numerous, non-collision fires, including mechanical and/or electrical failures, exposure to other fires, and a startling 8% of fires that were set intentionally. On that basis, the 172,000 fires-per-year figure doesn’t strike me as a very good basis for comparison to the Tesla fires.
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