Help Stop APS from taxing solar
Comments
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Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarAnd APS is relying on folks that don't have a dog in this hunt to THINK its happening that way here. In fact, its not. IF you chose a credit on your bill monthly, its at or below wholesale ($0.02-$0.03) If you chose EPR6, you get a "credit" for each kWh peak, and off peak and at the end of the year you will get a cash credit of $0.02-$0.03 per kWh. They are playing a shell game by saying that solar is using the grid as a battery while not accounting for the free loan of kWh. Currently, if you generate more than you consume, you can offset all the fees. That seems reasonable as they are getting kWh that they have already sold, and do not have to pay for until they are either needed or settled up.
They're not forcing you to sell anything to them. You can always choose not to sell if you don't like their conditions - as with any business. You can then use it to cycle batteries, or you can try to sell it to your neighbour. It's totally up to you. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
For me, my net metering period begins October and settles up in September (I don't have to pay anything other than a $4.40 per month billing/minimal power cost)--So, in my case, I go "negative" balance for the first 1/2 of the year and go positive only at the end of the year. I get the "free ride" for using power I did not pay for much of the year.
In our case, in California the systems are supposed to be designed to end up with Zero in the net metering account at the end of the one year cycle. And it was only last year that the state changed the rate plan to pay for unused credits in the account (so we knew up front, that an "over sized" system would be zeroed out at the end of the year).
In my case, I get (probably) a few cents a kWH for any kWH credits (something like $30-$60 payment)... But I typically have about a $300+ balance left in the account--So, am I losing money in the transaction--Only because I chose to install a larger array than I needed (I really thought that California was going to push us to electric cars 10 years ago when I installed my system). So, this was my fault, not the utility's. I knew the rules and made my choices (and got utility and federal rebates that allowed me to install a larger system than I probably would have at the time).
The state PUC created this plan (and waved PUC required fees payed to the utility for installing distributed generation systems) to encourage people to install solar GT power systems. This was decided to be the in the best interest of society (distributed GT Solar). From an engineering/economic point of view--I am not convinced that it was a sound requirement (as originally defined).
For folks that are off grid and now have a source of $1.00 per Watt solar panels (vs the $5-$10 per watt panels of a decade or so ago)--The whole subsidized GT Solar business was a huge success.
How much is the utility connection worth to a Solar GT customer? For me, it is a comparison of $4.40 per month utility fee vs a ~$10,000+ battery bank (plus inverter/charge controller/backup genset plus new battery bank every 5-8 years).
My guess is that for the utility, if they were to charge me the way commercial customers pay for power in California--Probably would be in the $40-$80 per month "reservation charges" for use of the utility infrastructure (assuming zero costs for actual kWH use/generation exchange).
Would I like to pay that much for using the utility infrastructure? No, but it would probably change the way, and amount of power I use, around my home. Would I go off grid at that price--probably not.
Either way, my family's monthly individual insurance costs have exploded--And is causing me a lot more grief/concern right now--No matter what my utility does.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarThey're not forcing you to sell anything to them. You can always choose not to sell if you don't like their conditions - as with any business. You can then use it to cycle batteries, or you can try to sell it to your neighbour. It's totally up to you.
Actually they are if unless you go off grid. Not much of a choice.
http://www.aps.com/en/residential/renewableenergy/typesofsolar/Pages/solar-panels.aspx
And selling to the neighbor isn't a legal option. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarActually they are if unless you go off grid. Not much of a choice.
http://www.aps.com/en/residential/renewableenergy/typesofsolar/Pages/solar-panels.aspx
And selling to the neighbor isn't a legal option.
Their web site is full of hipe and lacks any specifics. Do you have any link to a document that would explain their conditions? -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarTheir web site is full of hipe and lacks any specifics. Do you have any link to a document that would explain their conditions?
http://www.solartopps.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/leasedpvrestateamend-6a-10-3-12.pdf
The only application that I can find that allows you to chose not to sell to them is a generator system
http://smartsolarpv.com/uploads/SSS%20-%20Interconnection%20Application.pdf -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarReally I think that 9-9 is hurting you more than helping. You need some off peak generation. I almost wonder if they will find a way to force solar to use a plan like yours as they are almost guaranteed off peak usage.
Well maybe I did load shift a bunch to my on peak times and have been considering the noon to 7PM plan as well. I am not so sure about the summer months where the midday AC is pretty huge. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
Of course, if you want to interconnect your leased system, they have a right to push their condition. However, the only reason to interconnect is to be able to sell. Of course, if you already signed this, you agreed not to run your system in parallel. It's amazing that the document doesn't list any obligation by APS! Looks very one-sided to me. I would never sign this.
I don't think you need any approval from them if you do not interconnect, meaning that you still can draw from the grid, but you do not have any devices capable of pushing back the electricity. I'm not a lawyer though.
This whole debate arises because people do want to interconnect and they demand that they get paid a certain price. Like if you walked in a grocery store and brough your own jag of milk and said: "You sold me a similar jag of milk for $3. In the sake of general fairness, I demand that you now buy my milk back for the same price because it is produced by special green-fed cow!" -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarOf course, if you want to interconnect your leased system, they have a right to push their condition. However, the only reason to interconnect is to be able to sell. Of course, if you already signed this, you agreed not to run your system in parallel. It's amazing that the document doesn't list any obligation by APS! Looks very one-sided to me. I would never sign this.
I don't think you need any approval from them if you do not interconnect, meaning that you still can draw from the grid, but you do not have any devices capable of pushing back the electricity. I'm not a lawyer though.
This whole debate arises because people do want to interconnect and they demand that they get paid a certain price. Like if you walked in a grocery store and brough your own jag of milk and said: "You sold me a similar jag of milk for $3. In the sake of general fairness, I demand that you now buy my milk back for the same price because it is produced by special green-fed cow!"
selling is not the primary reason for gt. it is offsetting one's own power usage and thusly one's utility bill. selling implies one is out for profit and there's no real profit to be had with an oversized system as there are better ways to make money than this.
i think using a perishable foodstuff is not a fair analogy for comparison's sake. if one wants to go there then the excess power being wasted by utilities daily is like them spilling out the contents of an entire milk tanker truck every hour while complaining of your dribble from a glass once a month.
edit to add-the dribble spilled by you once a month is picked up by your neighbors who are consuming said power and those neighbors do pay for it and that payment goes to aps in this case. all you have done was consume your own milk and if any excesses are present aps gives you a small credit while reaping the full costs from your neighbors who consumed it making aps full of sour creme. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
I don't think you'll ever beat them, The week I turned my GT on the Utility Authority gave my gas company a $15.00 monthly service fee + the gas consumption and electric. The only problem is I only get gas from them, my electric comes from a different company. So my gas went from $5 average to $20. Of course my electric company still wants their cut with another $10 service fee. I will say, all I have is a banking with them, they will never buy or pay me for anything produced and I can swap my banked on a 1 for 1. It doesn't encourage me to conserve, I just burn it off to keep the balance reasonable. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarif any excesses are present aps gives you a small credit while reaping the full costs from your neighbors who consumed it making aps full of sour creme.
That's what businesses do. If they sells at the same price that they buys, they'll go out of business and there will be no service at all. They have to make profit, or they die. You don't get upset when NAWS charge you more than they paid for the stuff they sold you. How's the electrical company is different? -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
Actually, talking about utility power as a "perishable commodity" is not an usual concept:
Developing Wind Power Projects: Theory and Practice
By Tore Wizelius
http://books.google.com/books?id=eTaNk1VaQTYC&lpg=PA209&ots=z-WIsULlK6&dq=electrical%20power%20as%20perishable%20commodity&pg=PA209#v=onepage&q=electrical%20power%20as%20perishable%20commodity&f=falsePage 209:
Electrical power is a perishable commodity, and power production in the grid has to match the power consumption at all times.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
how is it they will go out of business? solar isn't that big for them to complain about. the excess, if as big as you feel it is, would enable them to shut down generators saving the utility the costs there.
maybe we should be lobbying for the right to compete with these monopolies and put in our own lines to customers. they should shut up while they can and have been spoiled all of these years. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarActually, talking about utility power as a "perishable commodity" is not an usual concept:
Developing Wind Power Projects: Theory and Practice
By Tore Wizelius
http://books.google.com/books?id=eTaNk1VaQTYC&lpg=PA209&ots=z-WIsULlK6&dq=electrical power as perishable commodity&pg=PA209#v=onepage&q=electrical power as perishable commodity&f=false
-Bill
ok so isn't the perishable power you produce offsetting your power consumption with the excess if any being consumed by neighbors. the waste that is perishable comes from the utilities running generators in standby that can be shut off when enough other generating sources are present. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarmaybe we should be lobbying for the right to compete with these monopolies and put in our own lines to customers. they should shut up while they can and have been spoiled all of these years.
Absolutely. That's the way to go. The government should stop subsidies to these companies, repeal most of the regulations, let free market work. Prices for the electricity will immediately skyrocket. Solar will become economically viable. Local generation, energy coops, micro-grids will take off. Everything will be fixed in 5-10 years. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarSolInvictus wrote: »Here is a summary from ASU: APS’s Proposal to Change Net-Metering, Arizona State University, Energy Policy Innovation Council, Published October 2013
Since APS pays for the surplus PV electricity annually and collect revenue monthly, they are receiving an interest free loan for 11 months of the year. That is not fair.
Not necessarily. If you produce more energy than you consume in one month and less than your consumption the next month, you use the credit from the first month to buy back kWh's in the second month. The fact that they pay you anything at all at the end of the year is a plus; in many jurisdictions they just wipe the slate clean at the end of the year as a disincentive to building a PV system that makes you a net exporter of energy. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
I just have to point out that having multiple parallel distribution systems for real open market competition between utilities is not at all practical. If you jump in the Wayback Machine you will see that such actually did exist when electrical power was first coming into its own and cities were crisscrossed with an appalling web of wiring of all sorts. It was difficult to maintain and caused a lot of problems (including sabotage). Much like India today.
If the distribution net were own by municipality then private generation plants could compete to the advantage of the consumer, but known models of that have proven to be failures as well. Any seemingly fair system can and will be corrupted, so you'd just end up with a different version of the APS Saga.
Nor can home solar electric generation be considered entirely interchangeable with central power plants. Solar does not run 24/7 and can not be adjusted up/down as demand requires.
This is not to say that I don't think some utilities are being purposefully obstructive towards solar, and the reason they are doing it is because of greed and ignorance. But then there's so much of that about why should they be any different from any other industry? -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
although what you say is generally true marc, then what do you propose to do about a utility that is going over the edge and is taking advantage of its monopoly status?
it would not be unwieldy to have 2 or 3 in competition and there is the option of underground cables as many places have adopted so one does not need to see many wires in the air. i can look out my window and i see many wires anyway with most as power wires. they run 3 high voltages wires above the smaller 240vac wires. smaller competing local systems would just run 3 more wires as they wouldn't need the 3 higher distribution wires in many cases. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solaralthough what you say is generally true marc, then what do you propose to do about a utility that is going over the edge and is taking advantage of its monopoly status?
That is what the public utilities commissions are supposed to oversee. Herein we find a bit of a problem with conflicts of interest and companies apparently funding disinformation campaigns. Our own BC Hydro is supposed to be a public trust, but has been subjected to more political machinations than you could imagine.
Even when you have the semblance of private competition you have collusion troubles, else why does every gas station in town sell for the same (agreed on) price?it would not be unwieldy to have 2 or 3 in competition and there is the option of underground cables as many places have adopted so one does not need to see many wires in the air. i can look out my window and i see many wires anyway with most as power wires. they run 3 high voltages wires above the smaller 240vac wires. smaller competing local systems would just run 3 more wires as they wouldn't need the 3 higher distribution wires in many cases.
Underground wires cost a lot more than overhead as you know. And another problem develops with the variation in customer density; the more rural the location the less profitable it is for any business. So who would supply power to those in outlying areas? As it is these more remote installs are somewhat subsidized by the cities, and commanded by legislative mandate.
It seems to me what we have here is a case of certain companies breaking the rules that are in place, and if you change the rules they just break the new ones. So the action that needs to be taken first and foremost is to apply some serious consequences for breaking the rules. For that they need to be found out, charged, and convicted. If they are allowed to get away with what they're doing things will only get worse. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
In case anyone is interested in testifying on Wednesday at the AZ Corp Comm. meeting, T.U.S.K. is looking for volunteers to do that. I can provide the person to contact. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarFairness keeps getting tossed about because APS has made a point in all their "hit pieces" and ads to emphasize that rooftop solar owners aren't paying their fair share. (hence the ice cream topping thief commercial)
Yep, I am playing on APS's hypocrisy with those reference to fairness. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
I do not understand this sentence. What do you mean?The 13-15 is totally inaccurate. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
actually their monopoly status is the problem because they break the rules and if they get fined then they just pass that on to the consumer. the utility doesn't care and they can't shut them down without discontinuing service to the customers either. talk about unfair.
underground wiring does have its disadvantages, it's true, but there are advantages as well. for instance many remote users keep getting power interruptions from downed trees the utility fails to keep in check with regular trimming. underground saves this maintenance chore as well as the frequent fixes needing extra equipment and manpower to do. it's a case like solar where it's more upfront, but less in the long run. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarSolInvictus wrote: »I do not understand this sentence. What do you mean?
Aps states they credit 13-15 cents per kWh, they do kWh to kWh and then settle at 2-3 cents. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
What would you do with it if they didn't have that option ?? They should give you the option to donate it to charity and let you deduct it from taxes at retail. I have tried to do that, but my Electric company won't play along. To me, that would be a win,win for everyone. Mine has a fund, but they won't take my extra production KWH for it.Aps states they credit 13-15 cents per kWh, they do kWh to kWh and then settle at 2-3 cents. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarBlackcherry04 wrote: »What would you do with it if they didn't have that option ?? They should give you the option to donate it to charity and let you deduct it from taxes at retail. I have tried to do that, but my Electric company won't play along. To me, that would be a win,win for everyone. Mine has a fund, but they won't take my extra production KWH for it.
Really irrelevant. They are a state regulated monopoly and lying about what they are paying. They don't get that option. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
When considering utility buy-back do keep in mind that the 'banking' of power is virtual/theoretical not real as it would be with batteries. If the power is not used when produced it does not exist for use later. Thus when 'later' comes the actual power used may be generated by a non-solar source.
As such utilities tend to regard solar as a nuisance they've been ordered to put up with, and it appears they are looking for whatever ways they can to avoid it. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
Don't you have a contract with them ?? Surely you must have signed something and now you don't like it ??Really irrelevant. They are a state regulated monopoly and lying about what they are paying. They don't get that option. -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solarBlackcherry04 wrote: »Don't you have a contract with them ?? Surely you must have signed something and now you don't like it ??
And they are trying to change that "contract" That is what the issue is. Before you start taking the side of the utility, you might want to educate yourself on what APS is trying to do. They are trying to create a fee of $50-$100 a month for solar customers. They are LYING publicly that they are paying 13-15 cents to solar when in fact they are not and using that as a basis for their claim that they are OVERPAYING for solar generated kWh.
http://ktar.com/22/1648986/Solar-supporters-APS-wants-to-tax-solar-power -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
Company's change contracts everyday, I am sure your contract has that clause in it that allows them to do it. My Gas company started charging a $15 a month service fee. I have a choice, pay it or disconnect, the same option you have.And they are trying to change that "contract" That is what the issue is. Before you start taking the side of the utility, you might want to educate yourself on what APS is trying to do. They are trying to create a fee of $50-$100 a month for solar customers. They are LYING publicly that they are paying 13-15 cents to solar when in fact they are not and using that as a basis for their claim that they are OVERPAYING for solar generated kWh.
http://ktar.com/22/1648986/Solar-supporters-APS-wants-to-tax-solar-power -
Re: Help Stop APS from taxing solar
The thing about a solar install it is a long term financial commitment so the change would be a financial hardship on existing customer. That being said, APS is willing to grandfather existing customer and only impose this "fee" on new customer wanting solar. This in effect will kill the installation of solar in AZ by removing at least part of the financial advantage it provides and putting that in its coffers. They have in no way told anyone, Including the ACC (PUC) how the non-solar users will benefit from this collection of "fees" as in reduce electric rates, etc.
BTW APS made more money last year than ever. 395 million on 3+ billion in sales for APS.
http://www.pinnaclewest.com/files/investors/2012_PNW_Statistical_Supplement.pdf
Really if this is an issue how it should go down is in a rate case:
1. Where every attached residence pays a fee for the grid maintenance, not just solar users.
2. Where generation and delivery charges are reduced accordingly so that APS profit remains flat.
APS would have to make a case by documenting what those breakout charges are.
Instead it looks like APS wants to own all the solar internally and then get the infrastructure charges to deliver it.
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