new battery, advice welcome

gww1
gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
I don't have internet service yet and only can answer when at my moms or brothers. spent the last two months installing the solar portion of my signature profile (just the bought stuff). I got a new battery a couple days ago. GB 48 volt 800 amp 20 hour rate forklift battery.

I had two days of checking SG's but dang if I didn't forget to bring them. I will do my best to remember stuff well enough for you to help me.

I am using a eye dropper to put acid in a little plate then put it to my eye and aim at a light. That is the type of tester I am using to check SG on the battery.

I twisted off a dc breaker bolt so I have no load on the battery. The battery was 50.4 volts per the mate on the outback inverters when I checked SG first and before I did any charging. The SG's per cell were as low as 1.255 to 1.265 with an average of 1.260. The battery company says 1.285. After the first charge: bulk, absorb (3 hours) and float (1 hour). The SG mostly went up by .010, an average of 170. I then equalized at close to 62 volts for one hour. I say close cause all three meters I measure with come up with quite differrent values. I am sort of sticking with the sears clamp meter cause it is in the middle and matches the outback inverter the closest. The SG went up around .010 on some to 1.280 with some staying about 1.270. The next morning I checked and the SG was around 1.260 and lower. I only spot checked.

I eqalize 4 more hours and checked every hour with no cool down. I got scared when some of the sg's seemed to be going down. I checked 4 cells before the sun came up this morning and got two that were 1.295 and two of my lowest cells were 1.285. I shut down the absorb cycle after about an hour and at about 1:30 pm I checked again. The chargers were in float mode. I checked the sg and the battery was again at the 1.270 to 1.280 range.


This was my commision charge and I don't really know what I am seeing. I want to fully charge but I don't want to over charge. I have no loads for a couple days. Do I keep letting the battery charge. I don't understand the large drop from this morning to this afternoon. What do you guys think? The battery drew about 500 watts to keep the equilize voltage.

Thanks
gww
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Comments

  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    It sounds fine, the temperatures will throw your reading off some. Once you get some cycles ( 20-50 ) on it and the pores in the lead take in some acid you'll see some variations in the SG measurements. I would assume the filled it with 1.280, so it sounds good.
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #3
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    I also used the sears clamp meter to try and keep an eye on the temp. During equalize the batterys didn't read above 70 degrees. The termal couple was stuck dow the corners of the batteries in the middle. I am having questions of how to use my battery senser. I have it on top of the battery under one of the lead interconnects. The voltage on the outback sees to run higher then the settings, I am assumming temp compansation. Also the mate doesn't get close to the manufactuers voltage settings but the charge controllers do. big differance in the cc's reading and had to adjust the readings with settings to get them to play the same tune. -5 on the fm80 and +3 on the mx to get them together and then raising the voltage as the inverter reads lower. Just alittle more info.
    Thanks
    gww
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    Blackcherry
    They said 1.285 and they gave a general statement sheet on battery care says fully charged at 1.285 to 1.295. 1,285 is on a placard on the battery.
    Thanks.
    gww.

    I just don't want to ruin it till my wife is mad about something different.
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    I also don't understand the relationship to charging and sg. Overnight they sg zomed but durring the day it plummited and was going down wile charging when I checked during end of 4 hour eq while checking immediatly after 1 hour eq. If my actions are hurting anyhthing or my checking hot is missleading I will have to figure anouther way.
    Thanks
    gww
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    gww1 wrote: »
    I also don't understand the relationship to charging and sg. Overnight they sg zomed but durring the day it plummited and was going down wile charging when I checked during end of 4 hour eq while checking immediatly after 1 hour eq. If my actions are hurting anyhthing or my checking hot is missleading I will have to figure anouther way.
    Thanks
    gww
    Do you have any load on the Inverter ?? That's a big battery, you won't hurt it. Since it's new and fresh, my thinking it's still forming.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    gww1 wrote: »
    I also don't understand the relationship to charging and sg. Overnight they sg zomed but durring the day it plummited and was going down wile charging when I checked during end of 4 hour eq while checking immediatly after 1 hour eq.
    Are you temperature correcting your hydrometer readings? As the battery and electrolyte get warmer the uncorrected SG reading will decrease. Especially likely to happen if the nights are cold and EQ charging throws a lot of heat into the battery.
    ...or my checking hot is missleading ...
    Yes it is, but if you also measure the electrolyte temperature you can correct for it and get perfectly good readings.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    Blackcherry
    No load yet, waiting on a breaker for one of my inverters. I don't want my well pump to go out so I have the inverter in bypass.

    Inetdog

    Believe it or not I don't have a chart to convert sg reading for heat. I can't believe the batteries seemed to stay so cool, They were fizzing. This is alot harder now that I can't look as I go, not having a internet connection. I am trying to find something cheeper then $60 something a month.

    I bought one hydro from naws and my eyes arn't good enough to use it. I paid over $80 for the other but it came with no literature. No internet and no manuals make me hate the digital age, I want manuals. I need to get a glass thermometer.

    77 degree is good yea? I will work on getting correct readings. Should I stop charging untill I get some loads?
    Thanks
    gww
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    inetdog wrote: »
    Are you temperature correcting your hydrometer readings?

    I think he is using a refractometer. Many refractometers are automatically temperature corrected.

    GWW, what brand/model refractometer are you using?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I think he is using a refractometer. Many refractometers are automatically temperature corrected.

    GWW, what brand/model refractometer are you using?

    --vtMaps
    Another thing that could cause misleading SG measurements would be very small bubbles in the sample taken, resulting from vigorous battery gassing.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    According to a Surrette bulletin I think, a drop in sg, after rising during an eq charge, indicates sulfate being driven off the plates into solution. It will rise again however. Wish I'd kept all the bulletins in a folder for just these queries. I've noticed the behavior before in my batteries.

    Ralph
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    According to a Surrette bulletin I think, a drop in sg, after rising during an eq charge, indicates sulfate being driven off the plates into solution.

    Huh? I thought driving sulfate into solution would raise the SG. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    Wish I'd kept all the bulletins in a folder for just these queries.

    Ralph

    Hey Ralph, came across this one bulletin. Probably not a lot of help in this situ, but who knows.
    https://www.altestore.com/mmsolar/others/Charging_and_Discharging_BU-RS-614.pdf
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    Rolls-Surrette makes a definitive statement in that document, that these batteries may not be for everyone. Chris Olsen and Northguy both had all kinds of issues until they started following a charging regimen as they suggest in it.

    " This bulletin addresses this and clearly states that Rolls/ Surrette batteries should be charged at higher voltage settings depending on RE System design and are designed for cycling use."

    " With large battery to PV systems, it is imperative that the battery bank is returned to 100% SOC once every 30 days."
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Rolls-Surrette makes a definitive statement in that document, that these batteries may not be for everyone. Chris Olsen and Northguy both had all kinds of issues until they started following a charging regimen as they suggest in it.

    " This bulletin addresses this and clearly states that Rolls/ Surrette batteries should be charged at higher voltage settings depending on RE System design and are designed for cycling use."

    " With large battery to PV systems, it is imperative that the battery bank is returned to 100% SOC once every 30 days."
    Wonder if that's why some people have been having problems with Surrette? A serious question.
    The Surrettes I now have, my first ever Surrettes, are a lot different than the old Power Battery L-16s I had for 11 years. It was strange going from an SG hanging around 1.30 with the Power Batteries to dealing with just 1.255, but I'm getting used to them and now realize the old batteries were way down on capacity for the last year. They'd reach absorb very quickly, but the new Surretts, which I've been putting to work powering the mini-slit for morning heat, hold their voltage well, then later when the sun comes up, they suck back on the amps getting back up to full charge. Their characteristics are so different from what I had before, that they had me worried at first, but kept going back to the manual and all it's info for mental support, and now I realize they're just different batteries, not the regular run of the mill types. Even the way they "boil" and the resulting sound is totally different. Can't explain it, you have to experience it. If they last, I'll be very happy with them, but first, lets see how they perform this Winter. The old batteries seldom dropped below the freezing point, even when ambient was hanging around 0F. In fact, during the years I insulated them for Winter, they never fell below the freezing point. I'll probably insulate the new ones for Winter and see how it goes.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    I wonder how many people would follow this one ?? Maybe in the winter, but not by their own actions.

    "" Once every three months the bank should be discharged to
    the low voltage set point before starting the generator. This is usually dependent
    on the cut-off of the inverter which is usually 11 volts on a 12V system. The
    batteries are designed to be cycled and a deeper discharge forces electrolyte
    deeper into the active plate material and helps open up fresh reaction sites. ""
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    "" Once every three months the bank should be discharged to
    the low voltage set point before starting the generator. ""

    I most certainly never did it with my batteries. Perhaps I was lucky, my last bank of L-16s lasted 11 years.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I wonder how many people would follow this one ?? Maybe in the winter, but not by their own actions.

    "" Once every three months the bank should be discharged to
    the low voltage set point before starting the generator. This is usually dependent
    on the cut-off of the inverter which is usually 11 volts ""

    At least when Surrette first published Bulletin 614, there were basically two major points. One was regarding Charge Acceptance, and the above quote was a remedy for diminished Acceptance, and an approach to try to maintain it. The second was a way to try to minimize genset fuel consumption, which is where the allow the battery bank to discharge over a period of days - weeks, and then recharge from a number of days of discharge, with a full recharge at least every 30 days.

    The above came from a conversation with Surrette. In addition, it was noted that this Bulletin was "controversial" within Surrette Engineering.

    And wayne, were your new Surrette 2 V batteries filled with 1.265 SG electrolyte? 1.255 seems slightly low, although your charging strategy may be different than mine.

    Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    Vic wrote: »
    And wayne, were your new Surrette 2 V batteries filled with 1.265 SG electrolyte? 1.255 seems slightly low, although your charging strategy may be different than mine.

    Vic
    Hi Vic, thanks for your question.
    The manual that came with them states full charge as having an SG of 1.255 to 1.265.
    When I picked them up brand new from the factory, they checked each battery for me, in front of me, with an electronic SG reader which the tech said cost $3500.00 (for what that's worth), but each and every 2 volt battery showed 1.255, right or wrong, and that's as high as I've been able to get it even after being fully charged and "boiling" them for close to 4 hours in EQ mode and it made no difference, so (and I'm NOT being sarcastic) I assume I have to believe they were filled with 1.255.
    What would you think? And again I'm NOT being sarcastic! All 6 batteries are showing the same SG as they did from the beginning.
    Because the manual states fully charged as being 1.255 to 1.265. I had been expecting the SG would come up to maybe 1.260, but that hasn't happened, at least not yet.
    And the batteries were brand new when I picked them up, had to wait a few weeks for them to be made. Almost seemed they made them on demand instead of having them sitting around like they might in a distribution cntr.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    Hi Wayne,

    Thanks for the reply. Nice that you were able to PU those batteries at the factory.

    They do know their batteries, and they have changed the SG range for full charge in the past couple of years. They used to say that 1.265 was fully charged.

    If you EQ for hours, and the SG refuses to rise further, then that is as high as your batteries can reasonable bo. Thanks, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    #21
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    Inetdog
    Sorry to have missed your question. I am on borrowed internet service and when I am at home I have none. I checked the sg again in the morning and my lowest reading cell was 1.285. My meter is extec portable hydro meter that I ordered off of amozon from a post "BB" posted on a different thread. I don't believe it is temp compansated er-go the high morning readings. I just can't read the sqeeze bulb meter I bought from naws. I need an eye-dropper cause the little plastic squeeze thinghy that came with it is already split and held together with tape. I also hate removing even the small amount of acid from the batteries though I know so little I am probly being stupid. I can read it well though.

    I think every thing is ok. I cut the absorb down to 1/2 hour and am waiting on the dc breaker to get it going again. I am using 4/0 welding wire from the battery to the inverter. The battery leads had a a thin layer of green corrosion from the factory. Thanks all for the discussion, I am bugging out now.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    gww1 wrote: »
    The battery leads had a a thin layer of green corrosion from the factory.

    Not sure if this product is available in your area, but I find it awesome for stopping corrosion in its tracks, as well as preventing it in the first place. My batt cables are nearly 12 years old and still like brand new. Give all terminals and ends a quick spray once a year and all is excellent.
    Can get it in a spray can for things like this.
    http://www.rustcheck.com/
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  • Rybren
    Rybren Solar Expert Posts: 351 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    Which one do you use, the Red Rust Inhibitor or the Green Coat & Protect?
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: new battery, advice welcome
    Rybren wrote: »
    Which one do you use, the Red Rust Inhibitor or the Green Coat & Protect?

    I use the red, it flows into every little possible crack or space, then thickens up there, good for a year at a time.
    The green is more like a grease that stays where you put it. They each have their place.
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  • Rybren
    Rybren Solar Expert Posts: 351 ✭✭
    #25
    Re: new battery, advice welcome

    Thanks! I'll have to stop by CT and pick some up.
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