Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

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  • RickeyH
    RickeyH Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭
    #32
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    No Sandy, my power needs haven't increased - just looking at options. Do you know if the GVFX3048E Inverter/Charger has the capability for auto-generator start?

    Just thought I would refresh my memory on how I got from a 3000 watt inverter to a 7000 watt inverter ;-)

    I am confident that we can get by on 5kwH per day but I do agree that a 3000 watt inverter may be a problem at times. However, having said that, the pre-wired systems do look pretty good.
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  • SandyP
    SandyP Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭
    #33
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Hi Rickey,

    Yes, both the VFX and the GVFX models have generator start/stop functions through the use of the AUX function on the inverter.
    Also, the surge capacity of the (G)VFX3048 will allow brief surges of up to ~4,5000w and longer term if you need more power you can stack another VFX3048 to share additional loads.
    Cheers,
    SandyP
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #34
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Just be aware that the Outback VFX does not have the generator support function like the studer or radian. Another option for a completely integrated system is the Studer extender + Studer MPPT charge controller: http://www.studer-inno.com/?cat=mppt_solar_charge_controller
    Their MPPT controller is quite interesting and has some features that even the classic doesn't have. E.g. you can program it to skip absorb charging if the battery voltage has not dropped below a certain level.

    From other people's comments who've installed studers the only complaint I've heard is that they're complicated to program, but other than that are very robust units.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #35
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia
    stephendv wrote: »
    From other people's comments who've installed studers the only complaint I've heard is that they're complicated to program, but other than that are very robust units.

    I've heard that said about the Outbacks also.

    As a general (not absolute) rule, the more features a unit has the more complicated it is to program. As Midnite continues to add features to their Classic, I detect (on their forums) more questions about programming.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    #36
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia
    RickeyH wrote: »
    No Sandy, my power needs haven't increased - just looking at options. Do you know if the GVFX3048E Inverter/Charger has the capability for auto-generator start?

    Just thought I would refresh my memory on how I got from a 3000 watt inverter to a 7000 watt inverter ;-)

    I am confident that we can get by on 5kwH per day but I do agree that a 3000 watt inverter may be a problem at times. However, having said that, the pre-wired systems do look pretty good.

    Hi Rickey,
    I have the exact pre-wired Outback system SandyP refers to. The difference is that we only need 3.5Kwh/day - and store to a 370amp hr 48v bank.

    But eventually we'd like to add another 1KW of panel to power a chest freezer (basically we'll add another series of three 220 watt panels). That way we'd be at the 5kwh you are looking at (though perhaps we'd need a larger bank though, like the 440amphr that Coot recommended).

    Anyway, we found the FP1-6 to be fairly easy to set up and program - We are not super handy but we did it all ourselves. Some general tips off the top of my head based on your previous posts:

    At first we thought we'd need generator auto-start and bought a generator that would be able to interface.....but looking back it was unnecessary. If you balance your system right and *set a system voltage cut off* (ours is at 48v ~ 50% SOC), then you don't need Autostart. IMO the latter is complex, risky and unnecessary most of the time. I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for autostart, but after 18 months of use (and a few 2 week's vacations away from the house) I see no overwhelming advantages.

    Also, I wish we got one of those 2000w Honda or Yamaha briefcase gennys, instead of the large one we have. There are risks connected to charging and running house loads at the same time that are not worth it.

    Anyway, got to run (will be back on line in a few days time). Good luck,
    SP
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
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  • RickeyH
    RickeyH Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭
    #37
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Thank you for taking the time to comment SP. I am leaning towards the FlexPower1 - 6 at this stage. I'm not sure that the inverter will give us what we want but understand that we can add another at a later date if need be.

    I watched Chris Olson's video on generator support and it makes a lot of sense to me to cut back on batteries a bit but be prepared to run the generator as need be. The auto-start was just a convenience thing, particularly with the maintenance of batteries. I would rather that the generator come on to charge the batteries rather than have the system just close down.

    I'm looking at a bigger generator as it will enable me to run my workshop tools (thicknesser, jointer, table saw etc.). Also, we are about to start producing cider and seasonally will have additional demands for power for pumping and cooling.

    Regards
    Rickey (just back from 3 days up the mountain - hence delay in replying)
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  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    #38
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia
    RickeyH wrote: »
    I'm looking at a bigger generator as it will enable me to run my workshop tools (thicknesser, jointer, table saw etc.). Also, we are about to start producing cider and seasonally will have additional demands for power for pumping and cooling.

    Regards
    Rickey (just back from 3 days up the mountain - hence delay in replying)

    No worries mate, I'm just now back from a hiatus myself (plus the NAWS forum was down for a little while). Understand the power needs for tools. I've used a 10" mitre saw (1800w?), a circular saw, and a 3/4" hammer drill (not all at the same time mind you, just with regular house loads ;-) using the Outback VFX Inverter on the FP1-6. Seems to do fine.

    If you are looking to expand and you don't want to burn so much generator fuel, perhaps the dual inverter OUtback FP-2? Don't know too much about those models but there you go. Generally happy with our FP-1-6 though (9 months so far).
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
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  • YehoshuaAgapao
    YehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
    #39
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia
    RickeyH wrote: »
    Plugging the details into the MidNite Solar Classic Sizing Tool shows me that 6 strings of 3 modules would be OK on Classic 150.

    60-cell polycrystalline panels are best buddies with 150V MPPT controllers and 48 volt battery banks - very flexible fit with 3 to a string.

    4 strings on 60A controller, 5 strings on 80A controller is safer in my opinion. You'll rarely get capped off you you will be rarely 100%-maxxing your controllers.
    4 strings of 3 (12 panels) running 100% of 240W STC @ 48V is exactly 60A
    5 strings of 3 (12 panels) running 100% of 250W STC @ 48V is 78.125A
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  • RickeyH
    RickeyH Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭
    #40
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Thanks Yehoshua. I am now leaning towards going with 5 strings of 3 (makes 15 by my reckoning ;-)) and the FLEXpower One System from Outback Power.

    I am planning on using the Honda EU6500IS inverter-generator; the same as what you have. Is it a 2 wire start or is it 3? I've had a good look and can't find that information. Would you recommend it? Comments?

    Regards
    Rickey
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  • YehoshuaAgapao
    YehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
    #41
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia
    RickeyH wrote: »
    Thanks Yehoshua. I am now leaning towards going with 5 strings of 3 (makes 15 by my reckoning ;-)) and the FLEXpower One System from Outback Power.

    I am planning on using the Honda EU6500IS inverter-generator; the same as what you have. Is it a 2 wire start or is it 3? I've had a good look and can't find that information. Would you recommend it? Comments?

    Regards
    Rickey

    I love my Honda generator. The only thing you won't like is the $$$price. But its quiet, and makes clean power, and conserves fuel when running less than 100% and so far consistent with the Honda reputation of 'Hondas don't break'.

    It is a type 10 on the xantrex generator auto-start. 3-wire 2-relay Start-Stop configuration. It wants 4 wires (3 positive, 1 negative) - start (relay), stop (relay), generator run signal (no relay), and a common negative. You need to get the shop manual for documentation of the remote control port (the standard manual will tell where the port is but nothing more). It is a non-standard connector so you will probably end up ripping it out and hardwiring it.
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  • YehoshuaAgapao
    YehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
    #42
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Your 190V panels have voltage characteristics of a 72-cell panel, so be sure it don't get too cold out. Are you sure they are only 190W and not 290?

    Canadian Solar 290W 72-cell monocrystalline panels have these stats:
    Pmax 290W, Vmp 36.3V, Imp 8.00A, Voc 44.7V, Isc 8.51A

    190W panels tend to run 48-cell. 48-cell fit well in strings of 4 (and 5 strings fit a 80A charge controller).
    290W panels tend to run 72-cell. Best fit is strings of 3 but if it gets cold out you could overvoltage (derating or possibly shutdown), mainly at dawn in a cold winter day.
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  • RickeyH
    RickeyH Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭
    #43
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Yep, definitely 190W http://www.energymatters.com.au/images/daqo/daqo-solar-panel.pdf 72 cells. Not hung up on the panels though. Waiting for a solar mob in Australia to get back to me with some options. Thanks for the info on the generator.

    Rickey
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #44
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Rickey,

    Choosing the right generator will depend on how often you plan to use it, and what you plan to use it for. The big advantages of the Honda EU style generators are clean output and reduced power consumption when running at less than full load. But if you only plan to use the generator for emergency use, or less than 100 hours/year just to bulk charge the batteries when the solar can't get you through the day, then an EU style gen is a waste. In that case, it would be better buy a cheaper good quality gen without inverter and invest the difference in more solar and/or a bigger battery inverter.

    I have a gen with a Honda GX270 engine and 4kW alternator, but only used it for under 20 hours last year just to bring the batteries up from 50% DoD to 80% DoD. That type of charging would have the gen running at max output so an invertergen would have been a waste.
    In hindsight, I would have been better off with a smaller (and cheaper) gen and more solar.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #45
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia
    stephendv wrote: »
    Rickey,

    Choosing the right generator will depend on how often you plan to use it, and what you plan to use it for. The big advantages of the Honda EU style generators are clean output and reduced power consumption when running at less than full load. But if you only plan to use the generator for emergency use, or less than 100 hours/year just to bulk charge the batteries when the solar can't get you through the day, then an EU style gen is a waste. In that case, it would be better buy a cheaper good quality gen without inverter and invest the difference in more solar and/or a bigger battery inverter.

    I have a gen with a Honda GX270 engine and 4kW alternator, but only used it for under 20 hours last year just to bring the batteries up from 50% DoD to 80% DoD. That type of charging would have the gen running at max output so an invertergen would have been a waste.
    In hindsight, I would have been better off with a smaller (and cheaper) gen and more solar.
    I have agree with this suggestion. A Honda EU 2000 will run for 7 hrs @ 60% output on a little over gallon of gas. Thats about 400 amp hrs @ 12 V, 200 amp hrs @ 24 V, 100 amp hrs @ 48 V and still pull a small pass through load like a refrigerator on the side.
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  • RickeyH
    RickeyH Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭
    #46
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    One of the reasons for the larger generator is that I want to set up a workshop. Typically I want to be able to run a 2 horsepower dust extractor and a 1 1/2 horsepower table saw at the same time. This will be infrequent so I can't see the point in having a larger battery bank.

    The other requirement is that probably from this season on (depending on how much fruit we get) we will start commercial production of cider (hard cider for you in the US). We have 120 apple trees that are 4 years old. So, seasonally there will be a requirement for extra power for pumping, filtering and maybe cooling. We also have 1000 grape vines that are 15 years old. At the moment the wine is made at our neighbours place (around 2000 bottles a year) and eventually we want to move the wine production to out place.

    So, I want to have the off-grid solar system with enough capacity to meet out domestic requirement and use a generator plus excess solar to meet our seasonal and infrequent higher demands.

    However, I will revisit the size of the generator - I might be getting a bit big there ;-)

    Thanks

    Rickey
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #47
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Have you looked into the start up load of that table saw?

    My shop (grid) power is used on / off, repeat as necessary for the 18A 240 V motor for safety reasons while the dust collection is on full time, with only one startup... your use pattern will define the gen set you will need plus other loads to be simultaneously carried..
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • RickeyH
    RickeyH Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭
    #48
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    My wood working tools are currently set up in a workshop on the grid using a 10amp 230Volt supply with no problems. I currently have a cheap generator that I bought for the build (BBT Inverter Generator Camping Caravan Outdoors 4.4Kva) with a max output of 3500 watts and it drives the table saw with no problems.

    I will check the requirements for the dust extractor.

    Thanks
    Rickey
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #49
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia
    RickeyH wrote: »
    One of the reasons for the larger generator is that I want to set up a workshop. Typically I want to be able to run a 2 horsepower dust extractor and a 1 1/2 horsepower table saw at the same time. This will be infrequent so I can't see the point in having a larger battery bank.

    If you want to cover the peak loads, then "generator support" is a good feature to look for in an inverter. I'm not sure whether you understood this feature from Chris O's post, but "generator support" doesn't just mean that the inverter will start the generator, it means that both the inverter and the generator's output can be paralleled together. In other words, if you have a 3kW inverter which has "generator support" and you have a 4kW generator, then you can draw 7kW from the system.
    The outback VFX inverters do NOT have this feature. Their GVFX inverters do, but it seems to be an unsupported feature (there was a long discussion on Chris' thread about this, think the conclusion was that it should work, but if it doesn't then outback won't help you out)
    The GVFX inverters also require very tight input voltage and frequency from generators and they might not work with a non-inverter generator.

    Other off-grid inverters that do have "generator support":
    - Xantrex XW
    - Victron Multiplus
    - SMA Sunny Island (not the old 3kW or 4kW models)
    - Studer inno
    - Magnum (? think I heard somewhere that it did?)
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  • RickeyH
    RickeyH Solar Expert Posts: 39 ✭
    #50
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia

    Thanks Stephen. I have watched Chris's video on generator support and understand that the inverter and the generator work together if needed to meet demand. I was not aware that the VFX inverters don't have that capability. I will check out the inverters that do have 'generator support.

    Regards
    Rickey
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #51
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    Re: Off Grid System in Victoria, Australia
    stephendv wrote: »
    Other off-grid inverters that do have "generator support":
    - Xantrex XW
    - Victron Multiplus
    - SMA Sunny Island (not the old 3kW or 4kW models)
    - Studer inno
    - Magnum (? think I heard somewhere that it did?)

    Magnum MSH series. MSH-M for mobile and MSM-RE for renewable energy
    http://www.magnumenergy.com/Products/MSH-REseries.htm

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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