Theft

System · February 2006

I've got a question on theft deterring solar panels. Has anyone experienced a lost due to the theft of their panels? Most are on roofs and that is probably the only deterant available. Has anyone implemented an anti theft device on their panels? At $800 a panel, I'd say this will soon be an issue for all solar enthusiasts. We lock our $80 bikes to polls and spend much $$$ on car alarms that nobody pays attention to, how would you feel about losing $5000 or more on your panels?? Just curious, and wondering how long it's going to take the greedy out there to realize how valuable these panels are, and find a quick way of profiting off of your loss?

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

Not yet, but it's something I think about every day. At the camp, they are on the shed roof, but in the future, when I eventually move them home, they will have to be on the ground, where it will be easy to get at them. I've been wondering about clearing off an area out back in the bush, where they won't be seen and run long wires. Seriously. It'll be a lot of work to clear the spot and a lot of work to keep it clear, especially as I get older. On top of that, as soon as our property value assessors find them, my taxes will shoot up. Not only is there no assistance or encouragement to get and use them, we are penalized for it.
Makes me think of getting rid of them and to heck with going off line, just use the conservation measures I learned in my experiment with solar and get on with life.
Wayne

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

Wayne from NS Cana wrote:

On top of that, as soon as our property value assessors find them, my taxes will shoot up. Not only is there no assistance or encouragement to get and use them, we are penalized for it.

You really hit the nail on the head with that statement. I lived out by the lake and put a new deck on the back. With in a week I got a call at work telling me that there was some guy in my back yard measuring my deck. It was the assessors office. It was listed when I went to assess and pay my taxes.

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

I too think about the justification of solar, only to be reminded of the sole reason life can exist on this planet, the sun. Are we worried about our dependence on oil? You better believe it. Step back and look at the big picture. Ignore political resistance, as they haven't found a way to profit from all this yet, but when they do, look out. Solar IS the future and I'm sure I can get a few supporters on this issue. I'm new to this field and very excited about it's potential. We are in the infancy stage of the next power revolution. This concern isn't new, only recently found addresable. How am I doing?

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

I'm noticing how forgetful I'm getting.. I was going to say before I got side tracked with Taxes, that my system is a ground a mount and I as well wonder if I'm going to see it there when I turn the corner on my way home everyday. But I was thinking about when I instlled it and put lots of bolts in it.. I hope that it will take them long enough for me to catch them before they can get the whole rack down. Or maybe the little old lady next door will get their tag number. If they want to take it there is really no way to stop them no matter what you do. Maybe a good spy cam but I'm sure they would think thatwould bring money an take it tool..

Can't win for loosing.

niel · February 2006

Re: Theft

there are some screws that have odd heads that can be bought with a special tool to screw them in. that may not deter thieves either as they may just cut them or take the whole thing mount and all. here around pittsburgh there are cameras to watch the highways with and, you guessed it, they are solar powered. i too wonder how long before somebody takes a few of them. they do vary in their size, but appear to be between 50 and 75watts each with some locations with 2 of them. i guess the only thing stopping them from being taken so far is that they are higher up on poles and one day somebody with a cherry picker will back up and take them. research would show them if they would be on within the camera angle or not with the truck. so far ignorance and height keeps them where they are, but as said for how long? and those on the ground are more prone to theft so maybe a hidden camera with a dummy camera as bait for the theft would work for you guys. keep them ignorant as long as you can by not bragging that you generate electricity by the sun. if they ask, tell them it's a solar experiment or even a solar heater. if your neighbor sees the camera tell them it's a defunct old outdoor light. hey it worked for me for awhile anyway till they figured it out, but they're still not sure.

crewzer · February 2006

Re: Theft

On top of that, as soon as our property value assessors find them, my taxes will shoot up.

You might want to check with your local assessment folks on this issue. PV equipment is specifically exempted from property tax assessment in my county.

HTH,
Jim / crewzer

niel · February 2006

Re: Theft

jim,
you may be the exception and not the rule.
jon, you may find something here: www.dsireusa.org

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

I have about 3600w that double as a patio cover. Everything is in plain view and is just 7’ off the ground at the low point. As for security, it wasn’t something I considered when designing the rack, but with 4 bolts each on 42 panels all with nylon locking nuts, anyone trying to remove them will need the better part of a day. Plus, many neighbors just have their panels laying on the ground so hopefully I won’t be the target.

Brock · February 2006

Re: Theft

Wow, in Wisconsin any renewable energy item is non-taxable in the property tax area anyway. That is about the only break we get for renewable energy, but at least we have that.

I have often wondered though how that adds that to the property taxes? How do they guess the cost of it to add to the property? And even though it's semi permanent, it can be removed if you sell, like an RV sitting in your driveway, they don't up the property taxes for that do they?

niel · February 2006

Re: Theft

anything that is a fixture of the property is taxable as part of that property. the rv isn't a fixture even if parked for a year. mounting the pvs on my roof adds to the house and thus they feel its value as well and the taxable amount is increased. the same goes for the land if you are brave enough to ground mount something here. even just replacing the shingles on your roof here has been known to increase your taxes. i don't agree with their methods or reasoning here in allegheny county for taxation, but it is downright greedy of them the way they do it. give us a break on taxes around here on anything won't happen and they constantly devise ways to generate more even to artificially inflate the so called value of your property so that the tax percent stays the same, but income from tax revenues increase because of the valuation increases. this allows so called political people here to say i didn't raise the tax rates. this is a local thing, but i fear it is spreading to other areas. if the state wants to make renewables nontaxable by law i would be pleased, but i don't see that happening so the local greed continues in this area.

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

niel wrote:

income from tax revenues increase because of the valuation increases. this allows so called political people here to say i didn't raise the tax rates..

That's exactly the way it works here in Nova Scotia too!
Wayne

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

Brock wrote:

Wow, in Wisconsin any renewable energy item is non-taxable in the property tax area anyway.

Same here in California. No property tax on solar PV systems.

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

I bought a place off-grid. Thieves had stolen one panel (as seen here http://photobucket.com/albums/e209/dbtoo/?action=view&current=10pvarrayandwatertankhouse.jpg). The morning I closed on my house, the neighbor called, and said the thieves had gotten a 2nd panel. :x The guy selling the place replaced them both, fortunately. :-) I still worry about it. I have bars on all the windows and doors of the place, but even with that someone tried to pry their way in during the last month. The array was also turned much further than it previously was, but that could have been high winds.
Someone mentioned having a camera, are you running a modified sine wave inverter? Mine burns up the X10 stuff. What are you utilizing for your monitoring system? Thanks.

crewzer · February 2006

Re: Theft

Bad news, Gents.

You may need to consider using anti-theft / tamper-resistant hardware like some of these items:

http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=1354670
http://www.tufnutworks.com/
http://www.tamperproof.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products

Here's a link to a site who's products suggest they've had good results from using anti-theft hardware:

http://www.farwestcorrosion.com/fwst/dcpower/solar01.htm

HTH,
Jim / crewzer

niel · February 2006

Re: Theft

you don't have to use 110vac at all on these cameras as this adds inefficiencies and can burn up their wall wort power supplies without quality sinewave ac. there are lots of cameras that run on 12vdc that come with a wall wort for 110vac use. use the 12v with a battery(can be solar charged) to allow those with grid 110vac, backup for those times the power goes out. the lcd tvs can often be run on 12vdc too allowing security in power outages. this of course doesn't apply to those of the grid, but if 12vdc is available use it on the cameras.
now there are plenty of cameras out there and here is one site i came up with for you to look at some. http://www.eyespyvideo.com/blackandwhite/bwweatherproofindex.htm i haven't bought any at this site so i can't say of the company's reputation, but get the black and white cams as they are more sensitive in low light and offer more resolution for the $. one note is never aim a camera at the sun or any reflection of its light. at the very least you won't see anything as it'll wipe the camera view or it could damage the camera itself. better light sensitive cameras that are good for night use may need more precautions during the day. some use infrared leds to add to the nightime visibility, but it's not quite the same as seeing a good daytime image. it may be enough to catch a thief though :-).
in anycase theft deterants are needed. if the thief sees he can't get that pv from you he may destroy them for you. get it on tape and catch that @#$# so he will be held responcible. there are 12v vcr and dvr's out there if need be. it's a shame that you may have to invest in security rather than more pvs, but that's how it is sometimes in some areas. at least it is able to be run on 12vdc.

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

Thanks Niel.
I also would recommend that people photograph all serial numbers, pv's, array, inverter, etc. That way if you see some new panels going up, you can inquire about them.

Matter of fact, the previous owner had a generator stolen. (They drove a truck through a cinder block wall, chained up the genny and pulled it from it's mounts.) The serial number of that genny matches one that was sold to an older lady that lives a couple of miles away ! Imagine that!

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

I am new to solar, but sadly experienced in security, my advice is put it out of sight, out of reach and / or bolt it down with the biggest security screws you can find. Remember the force these wankers use to rip off your kit is scary compared to the love and care you used to put it together. Although I sell surveillance systems every day, the aim of the game is to keep your gear safe, NOT to have great footage to give to the cops to do nothing with, having said that numberplates are often more use than faces if you can get them & tight shots with detail are better than wide covering shots that show 'someone doing something'

You will get 10000% more deterrent value out of a large 'real' looking dummy camera & sign for $150 than a fully functioning $6k covert day/night DVR setup.

Finally if you have an alarm panel on the site, run a tamper wire from the panel through the rig in such a way as they have to cut it early-on to get anywhere, dress it up as a bit of system wire, with these idiots, sirens usually make for a bad day

Hope you never need this advice!

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

brendon..

that was great advice. I was wanting to make a horn alarm system but could not think of a good way to hook it up.. but you are right they will cut the cable pretty much at first to cut the power.

Thanks,

Jon

niel · February 2006

Re: Theft

that is a good idea with an alarm to it. having them out of sight isn't always possible though. the dummy camera i believe i mentioned is good, but some have no scruples and nothing stops them, not even alarms and cameras. that is why i mentioned the dummy in sight with the real one hidden. them taking out the dummy may make them feel more at ease and maybe take a hood or mask off. :-) a camera system is cheap if used with a standard vcr. cameras range $50 and up with a good average for black and whites at $100.(it does depend on where you get them) i too have access to cams as a dealer, but i never persued it as i didn't see the potential to make that much. i would be happy to order a cam for anyone though, but i'd have to make a small profit and have extra for shipping all up front. (deleted by niel due to trouble with company) they won't let you buy as an individual as you must be a dealer. prices listed are the base cost to me and what i'd want for the s/h + small profit i will tell you. this may take time for the s/h costs as i'd have to touch base with them to find out the s/h costs and current pricing. i don't even know if they could ship it directly to you instead of me. won't matter until somebody wants one though.

System2 · February 2006

Re: Theft

Excellent advice Brendon, food for thought. I can do that and then I can relax - a lot - knowing what will happen when the panels are tampered with.
Wayne

System2 · April 2007

Re: Theft

When we bought our property in 1997 we parked a large box trailer here. The trailer was equipped with four 120 watt nominal 12V panels wired in parallel, a charge controller, a pair of 8D batteries, and a 1000 watt inverter. On the outside we mounted an outdoor mercury light on a timer so we could see to work late while clearing for the house. It was nice to have light and power available to us. I guess someone else decided they wanted it more.

One day while we were in town buying supplies, someone with a four wheeler (we found the tire tracks) used a rope thrown over the roof of the trailer to flip it over onto its side. The trailer box busted open and the trailer was ruined. They stole the four panels from the roof, but left the rest of the system. The batteries were both thrown from the battery box and ruined.

When I planned the solar power system for the house, I concreted in a 20 foot pipe, so now my primary array mount is 12 feet in the air. They won't be pulling this over with a four wheeler, and they will need a ladder just to get up to the lowest part of that array. The array was assembled on the ground and hoisted into place in one piece. They can't even get near the array now, and there are 4 security cameras with night vision located at strategic points around the property with time lapse recorders that I picked up off of govt surplus auction. I keep a shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot by the door just in case anyone decides to try ;-)

Bob

edited to fix a typo

niel · April 2007

Re: Theft

sorry for the loss of your system bob. did you write down the serial numbers and if so write to the pv manufacturer that those pvs are stolen. they may have broken something on the pvs and could be greedy enough to try to have them fixed for free if they are familiar with the years long warranties pvs have. odds are nobody will see or hear of them again though, but it's worth a shot reporting the serial umbers as stolen.

System2 · April 2007

Re: Theft

I had not even considered theft of my panels a possibility prior to that, so I did not bother writing the information down. I'm not sure, but I think they were Solerex brand.

After dealing with Shell a few years ago about a possible warranty issue, I place little value in the warranties anymore. Not only was I told that the warranty I had when I bought these panels was no longer valid for the original period of time, but that the problem would not be covered under their warranty. It was their determination that moisture may have encroached into the panels during use, and caused etching and discoloration on the surfaces of some cells. Degradation was not enough to qualify, but I was more concerned with future problems caused by this lack of proper sealing. Only the Siemens panels that I had bought have done this, the other brands I have are not affected.

Needless to say, I was less than thrilled to find that the oil companies had bought into the solar industry. Pricing per watt had been falling prior to this.

Bob

niel · April 2007

Re: Theft

you know i'm not a legal expert here, but that does sound like a lawsuit to me. sanyo may be pulling the same crap today with their warranty as well. when one buys a product that specifies a warranty you didn't just buy that product as you had bought that warranty as part of that product. now they can change that warranty for all future purchases made on or beyond the future change date, but those that made purchases before that or in the past they don't have a legal right to change in a negative way. i think they are setting themselves up for something bad in their greed to change their warranty. this cheats the consumer out of something that they paid for and indicates the product may be bad to begin with hinting at possible fraud or at the very least bait and switch. would you not be upset if the car you bought had say a 10yr/100,000 mile warranty and after 1 year you need to take them up on it because of a defect that they would say to you, that's too bad we won't honor that warranty as we changed it to 1 year only if driven on sundays? they aren't doing that because you bought that warranty as well as the car and they are not allowed to degrade it in any way without a possible lawsuit on them that they would lose. oil companies and foreign companies think they can do whatever they want to. all it takes is a lawyer and a lawsuit to put them in their place. it says much about a company that does this to their customers and it may be to late in your case with solarex, but sanyo better take note as people know they have legal rights.

System2 · April 2007

Re: Theft

Tamper resistant screws will slow down the thieves, but nothing will stop a dedicated thief.

When tamper resistant screws became more common I bought a set of pin head bits. But before that I'd just break off the pin and use a conventional allen or torx head bit to remove the screws when I encountered them. The anti-tamper nuts are another story. They are pretty hard to defeat.

No, I wasn't a thief. I was an electrician and the electrical utility used the screws on some panels that I had to open.

In my neighborhood the problem with ground mounted panels isn't theft as much as breakage from snow loads.

System2 · April 2007

Re: Theft

I just figured it was typical oil company behavior. Buy out the competition, create false shortages to drive up prices, cut back on warranties - both current and retroactive, push for more thin film technologies that have shorter useful lifespan - while still maintaining high profit margins.

All very obvious attempt to make solar energy a less attractive alternative, while they turn the screws even tighter in their primary energy markets. I feel that the loss of over half of my original warranty was just another form of theft committed by another oil company.

No big deal however, as I refuse to do future business directly with those greedy corporations. I now buy panels from govt surplus auctions for pennies on the dollar whenever I can find them close enough to be worth the drive. I have been doing alternative energy research for over 20 years, and I'm not ready to stop.

Bob

hillbilly · April 2007

Re: Theft

quoting Bob Boyce:
>I just figured it was typical oil company behavior. Buy out the competition, create false shortages to drive up prices, cut back on >warranties - both current and retroactive, push for more thin film technologies that have shorter useful lifespan - while still maintaining >high profit margins.
>All very obvious attempt to make solar energy a less attractive alternative,

This had bothered me too for a while now, does this sound just a bit too familiar? For those of you who have not yet seen it (ok, I may be THE last one on this board to see it), I cannot recomend enough the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car?". Kinda makes one think a bit about the future of solar/renewable energy; hard to say what could happen with the "big boys" involved... :x

System2 · April 2007

Re: Theft

I purchased 12 panels of 52 watts each and had them in storage. It was broken into and 6 were stolen. Talk about a bummer, they were used, but never in the sun moving electrons for me! So I think I will sell off the other 6 units as I do want to go 48 volt and can't match these panels anymore. They did leave 2 brand new unisolar 64's in the box. Isn't that weird?

Skip

niel · April 2007

Re: Theft

"They did leave 2 brand new unisolar 64's in the box. Isn't that weird?"

actually it's not wierd as they also left 6 of the other pvs too. they just took and didn't know what they took or they would have taken all of them, even the 64s, because they are still worth some money to a thief. it sounds more like a case that they may have been too cumbersome to take all of them, but they would have if they had really known what they were and cost. sorry about your loss and you could list the remaining 6 for sale here if you would like to.

System2 · April 2007

Re: Theft

crewzer wrote:

On top of that, as soon as our property value assessors find them, my taxes will shoot up.

You might want to check with your local assessment folks on this issue. PV equipment is specifically exempted from property tax assessment in my county.

HTH,
Jim / crewzer

property tax increase is exempt / waived for 20 years in MA

dont know if its national or state

Theft

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