Deep Cycle PV and Camping

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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #32
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping

    If it were me I would do individual PWM controllers for each set of different panels. Everyone does it different. I do it this way with inexpensive controllers, allowing panels to be a little more independent of each other. If a point of failure occurs its easy to find out from the point of the controller what is faulty

    For the(2) 100 watt panels I would of used the 10amp controller I suggested. Although its rated for 150watts in power that would be its vmp/imp rating, the controller handles up to 12 amps via the mosfet's it will be regulating power at or over it's 100% maximum regulation point. I would assume that with (1)100 watt panel the max Imp would be 6.2amps.
    For the 30watt and 15 watt panel I would of used the 8.5 amp controller, using 14AWG on the 15watt panel, and 12AWG on the 30watt panel and installing an inline fuse on the 14AWG gauge load side to the 15watt panel, as long as the runs don't exceed about 80~100ft, then I would upsize the conductor wire so that it doesn't hinder voltage.

    If that is not the route you want to go, I wouldn't waste money on expensive PWM's like xantrex/snieder electric. Sain Sonic sells a well built 30amp MPPT controller for $192 shipped.

    The highest consumer star review on the xantrex PWM is 4 star rating, the sain sonic MPPT 30amp controller has a 4.5 star consumer rating. Most of the arguements with customers that purchased the xantrex/schnieder electric pwm is that for its price point it would be better to just go MPPT at that point.

    MPPSolar a Tawain Company sells 30amp MPPT controllers on ebay for $120-$130. This guy did a review on youtube. 9 minutes into the video he opens up the mppt so you know what you pay for.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q2ICp7acvA


    Here's a picture of the sain sonic 30 amp MPPT. Prime members get it for $192 free shipping.
    Attachment not found.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #33
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping

    Charging specs for that controller: 
    Battery voltage setting (25℃)
Charging Parameter
Battery charging setting 	Gel 	Sealed 	Flooded
High Volt Disconnect 	16V; x2/24V 	16V; x2/24V 	16V; x2/24V
Charging limits voltage 	15.5V; x2/24V 	15.5V; x2/24V 	15.5V; x2/24V
Equalization voltage 	—— 	14.6V; x2/24V 	14.8V; x2/24V
Boost voltage 	14.2V; x2/24V 	14.4V; x2/24V 	14.6V; x2/24V
Float voltage 	13.8V; x2/24V 	13.8V; x2/24V 	13.8V; x2/24V
Boost return voltage 	13.2V; x2/24V 	13.2V; x2/24V 	13.2V; x2/24V
Low voltage reconnect 	12.6V; x2/24V 	12.6V; x2/24V 	12.6V; x2/24V
Under voltage recover 	12.2V; x2/24V 	12.2V; x2/24V 	12.2V; x2/24V
Under voltage warning 	12V; x2/24V 	12V; x2/24V 	12V; x2/24V
Low voltage disconnect 	11.1V; x2/24V 	11.1V; x2/24V 	11.1V; x2/24V
Boost duration 	2 hours 	2 hours 	2 hours
Equalize duration 	-- 	2 hours 	2 hours
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  • Nountaineer
    Nountaineer Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭
    #34
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping

    Thank you solar_dave and Neil, for your input. I must admit that all of the specs for this controller will take some time to digest, but we solar beginners have to learn as we go. I will be careful to follow the rated wire sizes especially since I already have #8 stranded 105 degree centigrade and possibly even some #6 stranded as well.
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  • mfoobar
    mfoobar Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭
    #35
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping

    I've got a motorhome (RV) in the UK and have a similar type setup but with a compressor fridge.Trying to use a Peltier-type fridge is just a no-go. They just draw way too much power. Waeco (aka Dometic, I'm guessing maybe another brand in the US) do a portable cool-box type fridge with a compressor instead of peltier which will work much better. e.g.:

    http://www.my-caravanning.com/en/products/cooling/compressor-coolers/

    This is all in your vehicle right? Or is it unloaded into a tent whilst you are staying there? If it is in the vehicle, then you could look at a split-charge system to charge the deep cycle batteries via the engine alternator when the engine is running. Between that and your solar panels you should be fine.

    -Matt
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  • PNjunction
    PNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    #36
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    SunForce for being a "cheap" inexpensive controller is pretty durable.
    I typically follow amazon reviews in the product comments section.

    The Schneider/Xantrex is far more of a real product than any of the Sunforce controllers. What you typically don't find mentioned in online merchandise reviews is the fact that they don't have any temperature-compensation, which will be an issue in 85F+ heat. Temp-overload, yes, but neither has temp compensation.

    The Schneider/Xantrex should be purchased with the optional temp-probe, otherwise one has to manually compensate the voltages.

    Speaking of which, the Sunforce units have fixed voltages, and the voltage-variance specs aren't that great. You might get one with a 14.3v absorb. or 14.6 or somewhere else. Same for float voltages. Luck of the draw. If you are serious about battery care, then these quickly become last-ditch temporary spares. Perhaps ok if you live in very temperate stable climes close to 68 to 72F all the time and luck out if the voltages actually match what is recommended for your specific battery chemistry. I've had numerous sunforce controllers and thought I was "pro" with the 8.5A controller. And while I didn't expect the volt/amp metering in the other sunforce to be as accurate as my Fluke 87V, it was off enough to be only a relative reference.

    Once one moves beyond merchandise reviews and discovers sites like NAWS, things like this really become apparent. Spending the extra $20 to do it right with recognized brands and one is off to a serious start.
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #37
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping
    PNjunction wrote: »
    The Schneider/Xantrex is far more of a real product than any of the Sunforce controllers. What you typically don't find mentioned in online merchandise reviews is the fact that they don't have any temperature-compensation, which will be an issue in 85F+ heat. Temp-overload, yes, but neither has temp compensation.

    I'm well beyond just reviews. Well aware of product placement. I test market as well.

    There is a price point that exceeds the potential in conversion efficiency. Anything over $90 for 30amp PWM IMO is well exceeding the price of value, most stores sell the c35 for over $100. (If) you can get a 30AMP MPPT that may cost 30% more yet will yield anywhere from 10~30% more than at the cost of value of a 30 amp PWM, then the MPPT would be a better option. I'm just saying relative to price point it's more of the consideration once that price is hitting $90 to $100 would it be better to just consider the investment of MPPT. Personally I think Arizona Wind and Sun has a great deal on the C35 I can't bash that at all what so ever for $83.00, I would take it over the sunforce 30 amp any day, just because it offers temperature control, the sunforce 30amp doesn't and they are the same price point.

    I never said that the sunforce was the best product out there compared to xantrex, that wasn't the implication, the implication was based off of basic PWM form and functionality and staging, has nothing to do with name branding wether it was sunforce VS XANTREX, it was all about price point. I'm implying for form and functionality of conversion, basic operation and staging PWM has its limitations to where the price point does begin to matter, regardless of temp probing, converting maybe 1 or 2 volts to an amp some times would equate to a better value (suggesting MPPT), temp probes aren't converting anything more they are justa method of regulation so that PWM can maintain it's peak modulation, it doesn't increase the potential for higher conversions than what would be normal circumstances.

    Sure there are cheap MPPT's that aren't even true MPPT's sold from china, direct from china for maybe $100~$130. However you could get a good 30amp MPPT had for the price of a $140 30~40amp PWM

    At that point its probably just better to step up to MPPT.

    I was just adding suggestion that with a plethora if different panels at different ampacities/ voltages (I-R curves) cheaper individual PWM's to sort out the panels for charging would be better than using one individual 35amp PWM, regardless of fusing.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #38
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping

    List price on the C35 is $120. Our host NAWS sells it for $84: http://www.solar-electric.com/tracc35solch.html
    A basic ProStar 30 Amp is $115 (list $157) http://www.solar-electric.com/ps-30.html It is debatable which is the better unit in terms of functionality and/or quality.

    You have to shop around, but you also have to know what you're buying. Comparing MPPT type controllers is more difficult because of the need to consider input/output specifications and extra features that inevitably are included in more expensive units.

    One thing you must always think about is whether or not the "no name" equipment will be around next year. Are you a gambler or an investor?

    I've thrown out a lot of "bargain" equipment when salvaging bad systems. If having the power is important to you, think twice before trying to save a couple of bucks.
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #39
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping
    Cariboocoot wrote: »

    One thing you must always think about is whether or not the "no name" equipment will be around next year. Are you a gambler or an investor?

    I don't think name branding really matters any more, the majority of internal components come from china, which ultimately suffers a lack of measured quality control.

    My point was Sunforce has been around the solar world for about 8 years now, so have companies like Wagan. Both started off as hack wanna be solar equipment firms (no names) that literally sold junk. Well, Wagan still does sell junk. However Sunforce stepped it up with QC, owns many patented rights to many of the controllers you see out on the market to date, by other manufacturers. Is starting to make attempts to get into higher end solar equipment such as MPPT, and higher amp rated controllers.

    China's entire government initiative is to go green and their government funds even the no name companies.

    Personally my research comes down to that it needs a UL or ETL listing, I've come to realize that things that are shipped from over sea's with just a CE certificate doesn't mean that it has been thoroughly reviewed to our western adapted codes for most reliability standards, and that much of the NO names out their do not afford the appropriate measures and steps to get UL, ETL cert's. If it has UL, or ETL certs I have no problem buying it.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
    #40
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping

    CE cert was just a letter signed by the CEC of the company saying the product complies with European requirements. Does it mean anything--Not a whole lot--Especially for products that have been manufactured by overseas shell companies. Usually it is just part of the government custom/import dance.

    UL/ETL/CSA/TUV/etc. under NRTLs (nationally recognized testing laboratories) are paid for compliance testing of first article to a set of UL or IEC requirements and that the first article passed those tests. (it has been decade or more since I have been in that side of the business--but I believe the basics are still unchanged).

    There (depending on product) are also ongoing compliance inspections (about 1-2 a year) where a UL (or other NRTL) inspector will make an unannounced spot inspection of the manufacturing facility. Looking for calibrated test equipment, test and equipment logs, look for traceability (check for UL/NRTL certs in incoming receiving files).

    The idea is that each point in the supply chain complies with its own requirements and product traceability--Then the entire chain from raw materials to product in customer's hands will comply too.

    A few years ago, I read that to do UL testing of a single Solar Panel model for Listing was ~$50,000 USD.

    Or, you can find a company that makes knock off UL hologram labels and buy them for $0.02 each....

    Remember that UL/etc. do not really guarantee the product will function to specifications--Just that it is not likely to kill the customer. Of course, a company that spends a bunch of money for LISTING/RECOGNIZING their product, probably put some effort into design and mfg. of said product.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #41
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    I don't think name branding really matters any more, the majority of internal components come from china, which ultimately suffers a lack of measured quality control.

    Except that a "name brand" has a reputation to maintain and so will assign quality control standards and step up when their products fail and look after their customers. If they don't they go out of business pretty quick. When that happens to "no name" companies they just change their name and continue as-was.
    Personally my research comes down to that it needs a UL or ETL listing, I've come to realize that things that are shipped from over sea's with just a CE certificate doesn't mean that it has been thoroughly reviewed to our western adapted codes for most reliability standards, and that much of the NO names out their do not afford the appropriate measures and steps to get UL, ETL cert's. If it has UL, or ETL certs I have no problem buying it.

    As Bill said such certification is only an indication of compliance with electrical safety standards, not performance or quality. Without it you can be buying a product that is not good quality, doesn't work well, and may be unsafe.
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #42
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping
    BB. wrote: »
    A few years ago, I read that to do UL testing of a single Solar Panel model for Listing was ~$50,000 USD.


    The price of those inspections have gone down. For many public school PPA financed projects many of the schools require that the tie in to "each" switch gear comply with UL inspection requirements. Mostly because the gears themselves were outdated by 65 years in age, and the school wanted an updated compliance that the gears would handle the kWh capacity. One of the firms I worked for we had paid $7,000 for the inspector to come out to meet and approve the interconnection approval, just for 2 points of interconnection (2 switch gears). It does in many ways work to prevent frivolous lawsuits from occurring being that the the means and methods of those interconnections prove to meet the safety requirements for the schools. The measure of safety in some respects is a measure that the gears will handle the longevity and overall performance of the system, even if something were to go faulty, as you said, it is safe for the customer.
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  • PNjunction
    PNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    #43
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping
    SolarPowered wrote: »
    I don't think name branding really matters any more, the majority of internal components come from china, which ultimately suffers a lack of measured quality control.

    It matters a LOT depending on how the corporation views what QC is actually all about. The norm that people expect is that a better product is produced, however in some corporate minds, improved QC just means quicker turnaround on replacing failed items with the very same quality as it had before - or offers to "upgrade" as compensation, yet the QC on THAT upgraded product is also faulty. At some point, people tire of gambling on getting one that actually works to advertised specs, or has some quality construction to it.

    I will admit however, that when I bought my Sunforce-distributed panel, it was actually a Japanese Sharp panel inside. Now that's QC! It's a beauty to behold and one thing is clear - pride of construction and engineering is evident. You just want to shake the hands of those who made it. Without getting too dreamy about it, it invokes a feeling that makes YOU want to do things with pride and precision. In fact, I believe (but am not sure) that it may have been made by North American workers, but designed in Japan.

    This shows that pride and precision are lost arts that don't actually belong to any nationality alone, and in today's disposable world it is hard to compete that way. ALL of the world's nationalities produce some very fine products with pride and precision, but until the corporations are willing to compete with pride, and not just price point, we are doomed to shoddy workmanship forever, and set the standard that way for generations to come. What we've really lost is the ability to look beyond mere materialism and focus on something intangible yet powerful.

    So QC takes on two different meanings - improve the actual product, or just continue dumping old stock until the old coot on the other end gives up and goes elsewhere. Get enough coots to give up, and you still make a profit. (not pointing to cariboo here! :)

    Witness products made with surface mount chips and such that show signs of never seeing a wave-machine, but are poorly hand-soldered instead.

    Granted, when you read the reviews elsewhere about how the "controller works great!" with my 20 watt panel and 600ah of deep cycle batteries when camping! Hard to tell when probably 99% live in deficit-charge land. In this case, it may not matter what they purchase as long as the charge led comes on. :)
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #44
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping
    PNjunction wrote: »
    I will admit however, that when I bought my Sunforce-distributed panel, it was actually a Japanese Sharp panel inside. Now that's QC! It's a beauty to behold and one thing is clear - pride of construction and engineering is evident. You just want to shake the hands of those who made it. Without getting too dreamy about it, it invokes a feeling that makes YOU want to do things with pride and precision. In fact, I believe (but am not sure) that it may have been made by North American workers, but designed in Japan.

    I don't want to talk to much about sunforce since that would be high jacking this thread in some respect, and isn't polite to Nountaineer. However what led me to buy the sunforce inverter was that Sunforce has a 2 year warranty against defects on their inverter with a warranty claim form and certificate, and most of the "no names" have limited 6 month and 1 year warranties. Wagan which is sunforces direct competitor only offers a 1 year warrant on their inverters. Warranty to me says alot that there was some involvement in the R&D process and that the longevity of the equipment should reach a life span in X (years).

    Kind of reminds me when xantrex first started as the no name a little over 25 years ago, and then became so popular, even though the entire product line wasn't the greatest, and then Schnieder Electric bought them out 4 years ago because of competition. Carries on with the same level if not better quality control.
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  • Nountaineer
    Nountaineer Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭
    #45
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    Re: Deep Cycle PV and Camping

    Thanks Matt, and it is all loaded into a 1993 Isuzu Rodeo. I sleep in the vehicle for improved safety and have batteries, controllers etc. on the passenger side floor. I have my Odd system mounted on a board with #6 wire in liquid-tite flex going through a rear window to the top where I place the solar panels. I pull a home built trailer which receives most of the contents so I will have a place to sleep. I am using larger wire than necessary so that I can add additional panels and batteries allowing more flexibility in powering other items such as power tools.

    I have two inverters, 400 watt and a Craftsman 750 watt which should handle some of my power tools eventually. The propane or electric fridge will have to wait for my next project.

    I did buy fused disconnects for the 100 watt panels as well as protection between the battery and controllers. The high end batteries will have to wait since Walmart is going to replace the "dead marine battery" that I started with, under warrenty. I also purchased 2 more of the same type, making a battery bank of 3, if needed.

    I have been offline due to a bad router so my lack of response was unintentional.
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