Auto-start generator help

rafuseca
rafuseca Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
Hi everyone, my family has a remote cabin in northern Maine with a small off-grid solar system (self installed) consisting of two 120 watt Kyocera panels (with intentions of expanding, someday), Xantrex C60 charge controller and a Xantrex DR2412 invert/charger. We keep an eye on a Midnight Solar battery capacity meter through-out the day and start up a portable generator as needed to recharge the battery bank (through the DR2412) if the panels aren’t producing enough juice. We would like to set up a portable auto-start generator and have come across the 3500 watt Category 5 Generator (Champion, model 46512) supported by Magnum’s AGS (stand-alone) as a pretty good solution for the scale of our operation but have a few questions and hope for some help from the forum.

A portable generator is needed over a permanent mostly because of cost but also theft. Because of the remoteness of the camp and our random visits, there is no security and theft is an issue, a friend of ours has had his panels stolen three times. A portable generator allows us to roll in and out of the garage as needed and lock up under key when we’re not there.So here are some of our questions:

-Is there any difference other than product name and color of paint to the Category 5 3500 watt generator (Champion, model 46512) sold by Northern Tool compared to the Champion 3500 watt generator sold by Cabelas (model 46539)? They look identical; both have electric start, but unsure if there is any difference in specs. The Champion at Cabelas is about $70 dollars cheaper and a store is nearby as opposed to going with Category 5 at Northern Tool and paying an additional $82 in shipping.

-Magnum website provides AGS wiring diagrams for specific generators. Magnum only provides a wiring diagram for the Champion Category 5 generator (model 46512) and they use the Network AGS (we will be using the Stand Alone AGS). I haven’t contacted Magnum yet but looking to see if there is any difference regarding my intended use of. I looked over the instructions and wiring diagram and cannot see anything that would prevent the use of the AGS-S for this application and hope to use with the Champion generator from Cabelas.

-The AGS wiring diagram for the generator is a little intimidating, requiring relays and timing delay information. I’m pretty handy but my knowledge of electronics is a Radio Shack 200-and-1 science fair kit when I was a kid (but I did design and install this solar system completely on my own and have been successful so far). I’m uncertain with the relays, does the sequence in wiring the number of relays create the necessary delay or is it something that is preset within each relay, requiring me to purchase relays of specific time delays? The diagram states SPDT 30 amp relays, not sure if I need more info. My intent is to wire the relays to a nonconductive board, cover and mount in area of the inverter and battery bank, run cat-5 cable to the generator and attached (I’ll probably install a jack here) to the appropriate wires of the combination switch as specified.

-any cons? Am I crazy?

Your help is greatly appreciated, Chris

Comments

  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    Re: Auto-start generator help

    The two generators look the same aside from an additional switch on the control panel of the "Cat 5" ( I think it is an off-remote-on switch) It will most likely work but you may want to see if you can find a schematic diagram for both and compare. I'd definately call Magnum's tech support too.

    Be sure to check out the note "Ways to provide the Generator Run Sense Output needed by the AGS"
    http://www.magnumenergy.com/Literature/Gen%20Wiring%20Diagrams/Run%20Sense%20Output%20Options%20(6-2-08).pdf
    (I suggest you keep it simple by using Option 2)

    The SPDT 30 amp relays are simple automotive type 12 volt relays available at NAPA, Auto Zone or whatever auto parts store. They may have 5 pins or only 4 (in which case they may be labled as SPST). You will not need the fifth pin (87a).

    I'm pretty sure the diagram would be the same for the "Network" or the "Stand alone" version.
    The relay timing info is a discription of the switching protocols inside the AGS and as long as you have the AGS dipswitches in the correct positions it should match the needs of the generator.

    The thing that drives me crazy with these, once they are all hooked up, is that you do not have a "Run" setting on the AGS remote panel, only "enable/off/test". You can, of course, turn the generator on at the generator's own control board but it seems to me that the remote should have this capability. The "Network" version has the same problem when used with the Magnum ME-RC50. (The ME-ARC50 can manualy run the gen.)

    Don't be intimidated. Just take it slow. One circuit at a time. If you can set up the power system you can do this.8)

    Alex
  • rafuseca
    rafuseca Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Re: Auto-start generator help

    Alex, greatly appreciate your help!

    I downloaded both operator manuals and compared the parts schematics and parts lists line by line. They generators are identical except for the fuel tanks. The one object on the Category5 control panel and not on the Champion was a on/off battery switch for the RF remote. But on comparing the two manuals, the switch is actually on both generators, the picture online must be from an older model.

    It’s been a busy past couple days doing research and actually got a reply back from Magnum stating that the wiring is the same on the 2 generators and their wiring diagram for the ME-AGS-S would work for the Champion generator.

    I’ve already made a trip to the local automotive store for the relays and planning a visit to Cabelas this weekend and pick up a generator.

    If all goes well I should have this installed at the camp in June and will post some after photo’s.

    Thanks again Alex

    Chris
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    Re: Auto-start generator help
    rafuseca wrote: »
    -Is there any difference other than product name and color of paint to the Category 5 3500 watt generator (Champion, model 46512) sold by Northern Tool compared to the Champion 3500 watt generator sold by Cabelas (model 46539)

    Just be aware, that IMHO, Champion tends to over-rate their generators a bit. I bought a 3 kW Champion 46538 last winter as a backup because our LP unit wouldn't start at 35 below and the gasoline one would. The 46538 is the same identical unit as the 46539 except that the 46539 has a shutoff switch to kill the power to the electronics so it won't discharge the battery over time.

    They call it a 3,500 watt unit, but it's only got a 25 amp main breaker. 25 x 120 = 3,000 watts. The trouble is, the little 196cc engine won't even deliver that at 1,000 foot elevation with nice cold, dense winter air. In warmer weather it's weaker yet. The most I could pull from it and keep the freq above 57 Hz was 21 amps @ 119 volts, which is an actual output of 2.5 kW. In 60 degree air it's down to 20 amps @ 119 volts, which is 2.38 kW.

    There is no governor adjustment possible to keep the freq up because the throttle is wide open, right up against the stop at the above power outputs. I tweaked up the AVR on mine to 125 volts no-load and that squeezed out what I got above. The AVR was factory set at 121 volts no-load and would dip down below 115 under load. I'm burning 91 octane premium pump gas in it with no ethanol. It had no power at all on winter oxygenated pump gas with ethanol in it, and would barely make 17 amps.

    The generator itself seems very well built and I have had zero problems with it, other than noted above. It has a cast iron sleeve, runs reasonably quiet, and has cast iron rockers on a rocker shaft with tappet and pushrod rotators:
    Attachment not found.
    Attachment not found.

    It started last winter at 35 below with just a shot of ether in the airbox, while the LP unit didn't have enough gas pressure in the tank to even cough once. But if you actually need a 3,500 watt generator I'd recommend buying a 4,500 watt one instead to be able to actually get your 3,500 watts with this particular brand.

    Wiring this series generator up for auto-start was extremely easy. The Combination Switch simply completes circuits to ground. The G/Y wire that goes the center terminals of it is the ground. The center terminals in the switch are common. There is power supplied to the starter relay with a white wire and the B/W from the starter relay to the Combination Switch is hooked to ground for crank. Grounding the black wire that goes to terminal #3 on the Combination Switch kills the ignition. The yellow wire on terminal # 6 just grounds the antenna so the remote won't work with the switch in the off position.

    There's a diode in the Transition that you may have to remove to disable the radio and built-in gen controller. Mine would auto-start fine and then shut off because the controller thought it wasn't supposed to be running since it hadn't received a signal from the remote. Removing that diode disables the radio and controller so it won't do that. Seems to me that diode was plugged into a plug that had a red wire and a black wire going to it. I can't find it in the wiring diagram in the manual for my unit. If you get to that point and have that problem I can take a photo of it and post it so you can see what to look for.
    --
    Chris
  • rafuseca
    rafuseca Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Re: Auto-start generator help

    Chris, good information very thankful for your post!
    The good weather this weekend had me outside with spring cleanup and glad I didn’t make that trip to Cabelas. After reading your input and the identifying the shortcoming of the 3500 watt generator, I’m glad I didn’t make the mistake of purchasing it. The Xantrex inverter I’m using has a 30a AC pass-thru and 30a AC charger, 20a or 21a from the 3500 (on a good weather day) is not enough and may lead to more problems down the road by wearing out faster than expected and jumped breakers. I’ve done more digging and found a Champion 6500 watt (model 41332 w/ electric start & remote, also same wire diagram) at COSCO for a fair price and may be the wiser buy. It sounds like the 3500 would be great for a RV campsite or something smaller than what I’m looking for.

    Good call on disabling the diode for the remote and glad for this forum (that saved a lot of frustration). I will be assembling the relays at home but unable to test until installing the AGS once on location in June. I’ll be sure to take pictures of the diode removal.

    Thanks again, Chris
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    Re: Auto-start generator help
    rafuseca wrote: »
    Good call on disabling the diode for the remote and glad for this forum (that saved a lot of frustration). I will be assembling the relays at home but unable to test until installing the AGS once on location in June. I’ll be sure to take pictures of the diode removal.

    All those wireless remote start Champion generators are similar as far as wiring goes - the 3000/3500/6500/7200 watt units. You take the power panel down by removing the screws that hold it to the gen frame. There's a cover over the radio unit that has two screws in it - it's the cover closest to the recoil end and there's a red light (that indicates radio is ready) and a button there.

    They're shipped in two different configurations - some have the diode plugged into a three pin plug that's closest to the LED and button - the diode is in a white connector with a piece of heat shrink over it. Some have a square diode block and that three pin connector will be plugged into it. That's the one you have to disable. The other big controller you'll see in there has a long connector going to it and that's for the choke stepper motor.

    I would try it first and see if it shuts itself down when you start it with your auto starting system. If the LED is lit that means the auto run system is enabled and it should stay running. If your auto starting system starts it and that LED isn't lit, it will probably run for a bit, then the built-in gen controller will disconnect power and shut the engine down. If it does that, there is two ways to make it stay running:
    -- press the button and hold it for a few seconds to make the LED come on, which enables the auto-run system in it. This draws a few milliamps off the gen battery continuously and will require a battery maintainer to keep the battery up in between starts
    -- disable the radio and built-in gen controller by unplugging that diode

    If you want to be able to use both the wireless remote (which has fairly decent range) and your auto gen controller, simply pressing the button to enable the auto-run system is the best way. All it takes is like a little VW solar panel to keep the battery maintained if you choose to be able to use the wireless remote with it.

    If you choose to use the wireless remote you can get more range out of the radio by extending the antenna wire. The antenna wire is white and you'll find it bundled in with the bundle of wires coming out of that gen controller box. It just terminates in the bundle that goes out by the low oil sensor. Butt connector an extra long wire on that and you can get up to 500 feet of range to the remote.
    --
    Chris
  • zaxx99
    zaxx99 Registered Users Posts: 2
    Re: Auto-start generator help

    Hi,
    I have this same Champion Generator and the Magnum AGS. Does the auto choke work for you? I talked to Champion and they said the auto-choke only works on the wireless starting.

    Is there a way to wire the Stepper Motor (auto-choke) to a relay and then to the AGS? I talked with Magnum and they told me I could use pins 1 and 8 to operate a relay for the auto-choke if I could figure out how the auto-choke is wired. Pins 1 and 8 on the AGS is for pre-heat.

    Thanks,

    Bobby
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    Re: Auto-start generator help

    The auto choke works fine on the 46538 model without using the wirelss. I think the only difference between the 46538 and 46539 is that they "upped" the output rating (with the same size breakers!) and there might be a battery disconnect switch on the 46539. If you simply tie into the starting switch terminals on either model (connecting the AGS relays in parallel with the starting switch) it should work identically to starting the generator with the starting switch.

    You can verify this by starting the generator without the wireless remote with the rocker switch on the gen panel. If it fires up and the auto choke works like it should then it does not require the wireless, or any extra relays, to activate the auto-choke.
    --
    Chris
  • zaxx99
    zaxx99 Registered Users Posts: 2
    Re: Auto-start generator help

    Hi,
    Mine will not start by the pressing the start on the combination switch, unless I manually switch the choke to start. My wireless remote will not, Champion is going to send me a new controll module. That may be why me auto-choke is not working. I will retest once I have the new module installed.

    Thanks for the info,

    Bobby
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    Re: Auto-start generator help

    That definitely sounds like a problem with the control module. The auto-choke, on every one I've seen, works with the start (combination) switch on the gen panel. It's always possible they changed something on newer models, but I doubt it.

    If it works with the wireless remote, then than verifies that the stepper motor is OK.
    --
    Chris
  • rafuseca
    rafuseca Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Re: Auto-start generator help

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    Hi everyone; wanted to give you all an update on the solar progress at camp. I went up for two weeks the end of June and got a lot done, especially indoors since it rained non-stop.

    -We mounted the solar panels on a cedar pole approx 30’ above ground, installed a Midnite Solar combiner box, lightning arrester, and ground wire/rod. Everything is encased 1.5” conduit (buried) to the attached garage. Total distance from the combiner box to the PVGFCI is approx 70’ and I used #1 AWG welding wire. Wire-calculators estimated #4 but I used #1, it was a better deal and thought it wouldn’t hurt incase someday I upgraded to higher capacity panels.

    -The old battery bank of 6ea marine 12v deep cycle batteries was replaced with 10ea AGM 6v golf cart batteries, wired in parallel series, we now have a new 12v 960 amp bank. The battery box is now insulated with 2” foam board and all wires replaced with 4/0. The wire was bought in bulk and we cut to length, used a hydraulic crimper in the lugs and used shrink tape.

    The panels and batteries are there full time now and hope they make it through the winter. We leave the C60 charge controller on full time and only turn on the DR2412 inverter when we are there.

    We ran out of time and didn’t get to wiring up the AGS but hope to start into that this fall when we go up for hunting season.

    On the DR2412 inverter controls, can anyone help me out with settings? For BATTERY TYPE SELECTOR, I set this to #5 (AGM/GEL CELL) or should I keep this at #7 (DEEP CYCLE LEAD ACID)? I attached a picture of the battery data for bulk and float charge rates. Any suggestions for the BATTERY CHARGE RATE POTENTIOMETER and OVER DISCHARGE PROTECTION settings? I have the BATTERY CAPACITY POTENTIOMETER cranked to 1K. Ultimately I want to be sure that I have everything safe and maximize the life of the system.