Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
Options
Dave Angelini
Solar Expert Posts: 6,746 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
I just read something that reminded me of a thread from years ago with Bill. This is from intersolar last week.The Sunny Boy 3000TL-US/4000TL-US/5000TL-US has some interesting features to offer residential solar. Its “secure power supply” feature provides daytime power even during a grid outage. Anyone know any more?
"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net
Comments
-
Re: bateryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
There's actually been quite a bit of discussion about this on the forum. So far no one has 'bit'. Apparently it has one outlet that can provide a limited amount of power during daylight without grid presence.
Has anyone got the fine details on this yet? Or even better, popped for one?
Somehow I don't think it's going to be that great of a thing. Probably will cause some confusion among consumers, considering how many of them already buy GT systems and then wonder why they have no power when the grid goes down. -
Re: bateryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
We have gotten reports from one or two SMA dealers and the descriptive information has been very complete. But no real life experience from and end user that I am aware of.Dave Sparks wrote: »I just read something that reminded me of a thread from years ago with Bill. This is from intersolar last week.The Sunny Boy 3000TL-US/4000TL-US/5000TL-US has some interesting features to offer residential solar. Its “secure power supply” feature provides daytime power even during a grid outage. Anyone know any more?
The other threads cover the limitations: Up to 12A at 120V if the panels are producing enough. Smallest system is the 3000, so we know that it might be as little as 50% effective in using the panel output.
When the panels cannot support the load, it shuts down and has to be restarted at the manual switch. It cannot be started while the utility power is present and the utility power cannot be used when restored until the switch is turned off.
The secure power supply outlet has no connection to the normal GTI wiring. It is a dedicated circuit.
It sounds really good as long as you understand its limitations.SMA SB 3000, old BP panels. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
biggest limitation is no sun = no output so the tunnel is a no go without batteries. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
Thanks for the info. I would think this would be the best thing in the world for someone who lived in hurricane alley. Really anywhere that had a major outage. Your could keep your freezer from spoiling, run a mini split during the day, and have a viable back-up to the generator when it does the failure mode. I always wondered why this was not done long ago?We have gotten reports from one or two SMA dealers and the descriptive information has been very complete. But no real life experience from and end user that I am aware of.
The other threads cover the limitations: Up to 12A at 120V if the panels are producing enough. Smallest system is the 3000, so we know that it might be as little as 50% effective in using the panel output.
When the panels cannot support the load, it shuts down and has to be restarted at the manual switch. It cannot be started while the utility power is present and the utility power cannot be used when restored until the switch is turned off.
The secure power supply outlet has no connection to the normal GTI wiring. It is a dedicated circuit.
It sounds really good as long as you understand its limitations."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
I went to an SMA training session a couple of months ago which featured this unit. SMA said it was initially introduced in Japan as a response to the Fukushima incident and were overwhelmed by requests for it from all over the world. It is IMO a great feature.Dave Sparks wrote: »Thanks for the info. I would think this would be the best thing in the world for someone who lived in hurricane alley. Really anywhere that had a major outage. Your could keep your freezer from spoiling, run a mini split during the day, and have a viable back-up to the generator when it does the failure mode. I always wondered why this was not done long ago? -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)Dave Sparks wrote: »Thanks for the info. I would think this would be the best thing in the world for someone who lived in hurricane alley. Really anywhere that had a major outage. Your could keep your freezer from spoiling, run a mini split during the day, and have a viable back-up to the generator when it does the failure mode. I always wondered why this was not done long ago?
Read Niel's comment. No sun = no power, same as always. When you have bad weather it tends to knock out solar panel production first, then takes down the power lines.
Then there's the issue of how it would handle the surge demand of a refrigerator starting.
I don't see this as being a particularly viable option for maintaining anything in an outage. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
Really ? well you can have eyes and still not see.:roll:Cariboocoot wrote: »Read Niel's comment. No sun = no power, same as always. When you have bad weather it tends to knock out solar panel production first, then takes down the power lines.
Then there's the issue of how it would handle the surge demand of a refrigerator starting.
I don't see this as being a particularly viable option for maintaining anything in an outage."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)Dave Sparks wrote: »Really ? well you can have eyes and still not see.:roll:
Or you can have decades of experience and know what you're talking about.
Do you people in California even know what bad weather looks like? -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
When Hurricane Ike hit the Texas coast, the clouds were gone in a few hours but my bud in Houston was without grid power for over seven weeks. An inverter like this loaded with PV would have been of great value to him during that time.Cariboocoot wrote: »Read Niel's comment. No sun = no power, same as always. When you have bad weather it tends to knock out solar panel production first, then takes down the power lines.
Then there's the issue of how it would handle the surge demand of a refrigerator starting.
I don't see this as being a particularly viable option for maintaining anything in an outage. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
Some people need to get out and see more of the world.
How often has it been explained here about the futility of solar charged batteries for back-up in inclement weather? It doesn't work.
Unfortunately a lot of people are going to see this new SMA feature and think it does. They already have that impression of standard GT systems. Then there are going to be even more disappointed people without power in the storm, and afterwards they will come here and asked why it didn't work.
And I'm going to say again: because it can't. When the power production is dependent on sunshine and you have no sunshine you have no power.
This thing has limited value. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
Are you speaking of me? If so, I would ask you to adopt a less insulting tone. If we disagree, we disagree; no one's opinion is absolute.Cariboocoot wrote: »Some people need to get out and see more of the world.
How often has it been explained here about the futility of solar charged batteries for back-up in inclement weather? It doesn't work.
Unfortunately a lot of people are going to see this new SMA feature and think it does. They already have that impression of standard GT systems. Then there are going to be even more disappointed people without power in the storm, and afterwards they will come here and asked why it didn't work.
And I'm going to say again: because it can't. When the power production is dependent on sunshine and you have no sunshine you have no power.
This thing has limited value.
The effects of inclement weather on the power grid frequently persist long after the the weather itself has passed, and in that sort of event (and in my opinion) some power during daylight hours is far superior to no power at all at any time. It all depends on the situation. If the grid is up and stable virtually all the time, then yes, this feature isn't of much, if any, value. In hurricane prone areas which can see days or even weeks of power outage in the event of a strike by a major storm, it's a different situation. Another thing to consider is that the inverters with this feature are very cheap compared to a battery system.
I would add that in the SMA symposium that I attended it was very well received and I would venture that not a single person in that room was under the illusion that a standard grid tied inverter will operate when the grid is down.
YMMV. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
It would be interesting to better understand how the SB E-Outlet works... If it requires manual plugging of appliances (plus a manual start on the SB GT Inverter) from mains to E-Outlet and a typical E-Star refrigerator that starts the defrost heater on every power failure--Probably interesting but not really "friendly" for a typical US customer (we are a plug and forget society).
Even if it does supply enough power for the homeowner to keep food and run a washer every couple of days--It may not address the issues that many locations have--No power for pumping city water and sewage... Long term outages are a complex issue in terms of survival needs/capabilities.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)I would add that in the SMA symposium that I attended it was very well received and I would venture that not a single person in that room was under the illusion that a standard grid tied inverter will operate when the grid is down.
Neither are we.
The general public on the other hand has no idea and will get entirely the wrong impression from this.
I think we're going to have to wait and see how this one plays out. Having spent a lot of time in bad weather and extended power outages I see its real value as being extremely limited and its potential for generating further confusion extensive.
This thread, if nothing else, proves my point. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)Cariboocoot wrote: »Neither are we.
The general public on the other hand has no idea and will get entirely the wrong impression from this.
I think we're going to have to wait and see how this one plays out. Having spent a lot of time in bad weather and extended power outages I see its real value as being extremely limited and its potential for generating further confusion extensive.
This thread, if nothing else, proves my point.
It proves nothing. Just because some of us disagree with you does not prove that we are being deceived by SMA. Your experience in bad weather and power outages is a single subjective data point and does not define the world. My friend in Houston is a counterexample; he was without grid power for seven sunny weeks. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)It proves nothing. Just because some of us disagree with you does not prove that we are being deceived by SMA. Your experience in bad weather and power outages is a single subjective data point and does not define the world. My friend in Houston is a counterexample; he was without grid power for seven sunny weeks.
No, your friend in Houston is the single subjective data point. My myriad experiences are a more accurate representation of what is found in a broad sampling of areas and conditions.
I do not believe nor have I ever said that SMA intends to mislead anyone. But I do know how the general public at large perceives things, and they will perceive this incorrectly. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
I sent the SMA announcement to a workmate at Lockheed and he said this is nothing new really. Battery based satellites often have battery failure modes where they can run when the sun is in view. Many of the satellites just keep the sun in view and are battery less. Every now and then something really good can happen!It proves nothing. Just because some of us disagree with you does not prove that we are being deceived by SMA. Your experience in bad weather and power outages is a single subjective data point and does not define the world. My friend in Houston is a counterexample; he was without grid power for seven sunny weeks."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)Dave Sparks wrote: »I sent the SMA announcement to a workmate at Lockheed and he said this is nothing new really. Battery based satellites often have battery failure modes where they can run when the sun is in view. Many of the satellites just keep the sun in view and are battery less. Every now and then something really good can happen!
It is easy for satellites to keep the Sun in sight all the time. Not possible on Earth. If you have a generator, I think SMA can lock on it and reduce generator load. If you don't, you only have power during the day, which is better than nothing, but very inconvenient anway.
Mars rover had solar panels which got covered in dust. I've heard on TV that ingeneers knew that so that their installed a source of nuclear power inside. Could that be for real? -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
It depends... I believe the last rovers were pure solar panels.
The latest rover is nuclear powered:
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/428751/nuclear-generator-powers-curiosity-mars-mission/Enter the Multi-Mission Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator, or MMRTP, an energy source that relies on the heat generated by decaying plutonium dioxide to run Curiosity. It’s designed to run at least one Martian year, which is almost two Earth years.
The Curiosity is essentially a robotic science lab, equipped with sophisticated instruments for taking ground samples and analyzing their chemical make-up in the search for signs of life. This testing and communications equipment needs a lot of power to operate and needs to maintain a certain temperature to effectively operate on Mars where temperatures can go far below freezing.
The nuclear generator delivers both heat and 110 watts of steady electric power from an array of iridium capsules holding a ceramic form of plutonium dioxide. The heat is piped through the Curiosity carried by liquid Freon. Thermoelectric devices on the generator convert the heat into electricity with no moving parts. Idaho National Laboratory, which designed and tested the energy system, says it can operate for years.
Nuclear power has been used in 26 previous space missions over the past 50 years. The Idaho National Lab team began assembling the power source in the summer of 2008, which included tests for vibrations to simulate rocket launch conditions and making sure the generator’s electric field won’t affect on-board scientific instruments.
I believe this load of plutonium came from Russia.
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/atlas/av028/111117mmrtg/
Attachment not found.The 99-pound device was lifted inside the building and inserted through an access door on the rocket's bulbous white payload fairing. Technicians placed the power source on Curiosity through an opening on the spacecraft's backshell, which encloses the rover and its landing system during the journey from Earth to Mars.
It's a simple connection, according to David Gruel, manager of the mission's assembly, test and launch operations phase. (
"We have four bolts holding it on and we hook up the electrical connections," Gruel said.
Once the MMRTG is all hooked up, the spacecraft will begin receiving its own power. The final power-up is scheduled for Friday morning, and it won't be turned off again.
"It's really cool that when the vehicle is powered on [Friday] with the RTG that it's basically going to stay powered all the way through the mission," Gruel said.
Just a Thermal Electric Generator--Hot Plutonium (radioactive decay) pellet in the middle of a thermo-pile.
Radioisotope thermoelectric generators
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
It is easy for satellites if the orbit allows it! It depends on what you want to see and when. Quite a few different orbit strategies. People have been asking for decades why they can't get daytime power out of grid-tie solar during an outage for decades. Now they can! I would think that other companies will develop it more and a lot of the grid back-up for residential will incorporate new strategies in places with abundant solar resources. Most of southwest rural living would easily make use of daytime solar power only during an outage. All of the doomsday threads that spring up on this forum from time to time have got to love this kind of development.It is easy for satellites to keep the Sun in sight all the time. Not possible on Earth. If you have a generator, I think SMA can lock on it and reduce generator load. If you don't, you only have power during the day, which is better than nothing, but very inconvenient anway.
Mars rover had solar panels which got covered in dust. I've heard on TV that ingeneers knew that so that their installed a source of nuclear power inside. Could that be for real?"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Re: bateryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)When the panels cannot support the load, it shuts down and has to be restarted at the manual switch.
This is not the same as what I was told by the SMA rep at Intersolar. He told me that if it shuts down due to overload, it tries again every 20 seconds.It cannot be started while the utility power is present and the utility power cannot be used when restored until the switch is turned off. The secure power supply outlet has no connection to the normal GTI wiring. It is a dedicated circuit.
That part is correct. The manual switch is wired to a pair of terminals in the inverter. The switch must be turned on for the backup supply to operate, and then turned off to resume normal GTI operation. It does appear that someone could make the mistake of leaving the inverter in backup mode for a period of time after utility power resumes, and thus lose some net-metering savings.
Also it should be noted that the outlet and switch and box must be supplied by the installer, so there is a $40ish cost to installing it that is not included in the inverter price. -
Re: Batteryless solar car going into a tunnel (Waldo Grade)
i guess i'll give an opinion on this.
anything that will offer power when there is none is a plus, but there are limitations of when it will provide this and can be spotty due to cloud cover or nonexistent for the same reason and of course because of night. it is the limitations that can be misunderstood by a society that is used to plug and play. most do not have solid sunshine on demand either. if properly informed they can know if they'd want some other type of backup such as a generator or batteries and inverter which the latter can influence their choices for solar equipment up front.
in summary, it is a limited asset to the informed purchaser.
Categories
- All Categories
- 243 Forum & Website
- 150 Solar Forum News and Announcements
- 1.4K Solar News, Reviews, & Product Announcements
- 191 Solar Information links & sources, event announcements
- 919 Solar Product Reviews & Opinions
- 256 Solar Skeptics, Hype, & Scams Corner
- 22.5K Solar Electric Power, Wind Power & Balance of System
- 3.6K General Solar Power Topics
- 6.7K Solar Beginners Corner
- 1K PV Installers Forum - NEC, Wiring, Installation
- 2.1K Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum
- 5.5K Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems
- 438 Caravan, Recreational Vehicle, and Marine Power Systems
- 1.1K Grid Tie and Grid Interactive Systems
- 652 Solar Water Pumping
- 829 Wind Power Generation
- 626 Energy Use & Conservation
- 626 Discussion Forums/Café
- 303 In the Weeds--Member's Choice
- 91 Construction
- 124 New Battery Technologies
- 108 Old Battery Tech Discussions
- 3.8K Solar News - Automatic Feed
- 3.8K Solar Energy News RSS Feed