Why do this?

spockmckoy · July 2013

Hi all,
I am beginning my research on wind and solar. Though I find both interesting and each has their own plus/minus. The question that keeps coming into my mind is this: Why do either if you have reliable city power? I have looked at costs of start up. Wind: generator/electronic control equipment/mast/batteries. Solar: panels/electronic control equipment/roof brackets/batteries. Then what? I'm going to charge some batteries, then hook them up to an inverter and run what? A couple of lights? To run the house, I need to spend some serious monies. One calculation I did with an adequate solar install would equate to 7+ yrs of my power company electricity based on my avg monthly expense. [this is if there are no equipment/battery failures that need replacing in that 7+ yrs] The proper batteries are very expensive and have only X time of useful life. I don't lose power often, nor for long [hour or 2]. I have gasoline generators and I'm considering converting 1 to nat gas. IF I had a cabin that was off grid, I might see it, but living in a suburb, none of this makes Cents. I am open to thoughts, critical comments. Those of you who have either/both, why do you have it?

verdigo · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

Because its very interesting, and its fun. I would never hire someone to install a system for me. Can't see the fun in that.

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

Welcome to the forum.

You are quite right that most of the time solar or wind power can not compete with grid power. Sometimes solar grid-tie can, if the grid is expensive enough and there's sufficient incentive. As far as totally off-grid power goes ... unless the grid is not available or unreliable it is a rare instance that it is economically viable. This may change in future as grid base charges increase making the smallest power consumption very expensive per Watt hour.

As for me I have off-grid solar at my cabin because the nearest power lines are miles away and there is no chance they will ever be run out to where the cabin is. In town I have 10 cent per kW hour utility and there's no chance solar or wind could compete with that.

spockmckoy · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

verdigo wrote: »

Because its very interesting, and its fun. I would never hire someone to install a system for me. Can't see the fun in that.

pretty expensive fun. I am an electrician by trade and could wire up the system for my 'fun' if I desire, I'm just not feeling the 'fun' at this cost.

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

spockmckoy wrote: »

pretty expensive fun. I am an electrician by trade and could wire up the system for my 'fun' if I desire, I'm just not feeling the 'fun' at this cost.

What sort of cost are you seeing? Because it isn't the same everywhere around the country/continent/world.

Some people do just a small off-grid system for fun, which can include hunting down bargain equipment to save a few $. Everyone has a hobby, and they all have one thing in common: they cost money.

verdigo · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

spockmckoy wrote: »

pretty expensive fun. I am an electrician by trade and could wire up the system for my 'fun' if I desire, I'm just not feeling the 'fun' at this cost.

I am a mechanic by trade. I got tired of car, boat, projects. I have a friend who fishes and has thousands and thousands in fishing gear, boats, ect. I like to eat fish, but I can go to the grocery and buy it much cheaper. I suppose if I were a professional electrician I would see it much the same way as you.

ChrisOlson · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

spockmckoy wrote: »

Those of you who have either/both, why do you have it?

Congratulations! You are one of the few people I have "met" that has seen thru the "green hype", put the calculator to it and figured out that generating your own power is LOTS more expensive than buying it from the utility company.

My wife and I did it based on the fact that when we built our house we did not want to live next to my parents. So our decision was based on location rather than the convenience of building where we could easily get utility power run to our home. We have been here for 12 years and one month, and have never regretted our decision. Although early on when we were starting out and building we were short on money lots of times and it was not easy.
--
Chris

RandomJoe · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

I also do it in large part because it's interesting and fun. I also have the knowledge to work with it properly. That wasn't necessarily sufficient, I needed something to kick me off. In my case it was sitting in the cold and dark for several days after an ice storm (I was lucky, others in my area were out a week or more).

Now, the quick and certainly much cheaper way to cover an outage like that is a generator. But one of my neighbors had a generator running - loud racket thundering away 24x7 the entire time. Ugh. I'm also a bit cynical - figured if I did that, since I *do* have to get to work or even just go to the store occasionally someone would rip me off in the interim. Not to mention the need for feeding the generator fuel - I didn't want to keep a large quantity of fuel on hand just in case the stations were also without power. I liked the idea of a battery bank to run off during most of the day, with a generator only running (at peak efficiency to boot) for a short time recharging if necessary.

I also had another concern with the generator, I'm *lousy* about keeping tabs on seldom-used items. Something (like a generator) that I otherwise don't need to use for long periods of time tends to get forgotten, which could well mean it'd be likely to fail when I need it. On the other hand, something I use regularly (like the solar power system) will get my attention far more often as it isn't "out of sight, out of mind".

At that point the interesting and fun parts kicked in and I started tinkering with solar power. I also tried wind, but as I live in an area that restricts wind turbines I couldn't do much there. Went from a Harbor Freight 45W kit and small AGM battery (barely enough to run my ham radio bench) to a mid-size 12V system that could keep the fridge running, then decided to go 48V and forget trying to use 12V DC stuff and over time progressed to where I now have the most-used circuits of my house run through a secondary breaker panel fed by the transfer switch in my inverter.

The solar system is tied to a computer and I can command it to switch between inverter and grid whenever desired, so I can recoup just a little more of the cost in utility bills. Not that I ever expect to make it pay off - I once figured that it would take something like 57 years without a failure (obviously not going to happen) to break even. That was before doubling the panels, and I've already replaced the battery bank, so forget payoff!

On the other hand, I have a system that operates daily. It's tied to my home automation system so I can keep tabs on it anywhere, so I'm much likelier to keep it in good operating condition if/when it is *really* needed. I get a bit more "rebate" from it now, since I was able to switch to the utility company's "time of use" plan. They give me half-price electricity off-peak, then variable (much higher) rates on-peak 2-7PM weekdays during June thru September. I simply disconnect from grid power during that window no matter what (if cloudy I run on battery). I'm usually disconnected long before then anyway, effectively off-grid 5AM to 8PM during the summer.

I get a kick out of running my little mini-split AC unit directly off the solar panels each day, keeping my office nice and cool, then seeing the utility bill show up each month with only 1-2 kWh on-peak power used each month!

(I have a few parasitic loads I haven't bothered to do anything about yet, and the bathroom lights are still grid-only, didn't buy a large enough sub-panel. Systems certainly do tend to grow over time... Perhaps I'll upgrade the subpanel at some point, kill the other parasitics, and drop to 0 kWh on-peak - some day!)

There is one curious "disappointment" in all this for me - in some ways experiencing a power outage can be fun / exciting as well. Sort of an urban adventure, long as it doesn't last too long and the weather isn't too extreme! I don't get to do that anymore. No pulling out the camping lantern or lighting a fire in the fireplace and sitting in the dark. Heck, I don't even know there *was* an outage until after the fact! The only way I know at all is that the microwave - still grid-only - clock resets. Or if I look in my server logs and see "No AC" on the inverter's status. We haven't had any really long outages like the one that kicked all this off for me, but there has been one 4-hour, a few just under an hour, and a really remarkable number of brief bumps. My system instantly switches to inverter (if not already there) and the lights don't even flicker!

NorthGuy · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

If you install a system that lasts 25 years, but pays off in 7 years, then you get 18 years of free electricity. And you say this is not worth it?

mtdoc · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

RandomJoe wrote: »

There is one curious "disappointment" in all this for me - in some ways experiencing a power outage can be fun / exciting as well. Sort of an urban adventure, long as it doesn't last too long and the weather isn't too extreme! I don't get to do that anymore. No pulling out the camping lantern or lighting a fire in the fireplace and sitting in the dark. Heck, I don't even know there *was* an outage until after the fact! The only way I know at all is that the microwave - still grid-only - clock resets. Or if I look in my server logs and see "No AC" on the inverter's status.

Hah! I feel exactly the same way. My family now takes the power for granted. It makes me sad to think my kids will not grow up with the memories of "camping" at home when the power is out.

solar_dave · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

I did grid tie cause it made financial sense. At the time the Utility offered $3.00 a watt rebate and the Feds kicked in 30% on the balance and the state $1000. Then it was about $6.00 a watt installed. It reduced my electric bill from about $5500 annually to about $400-500. Pay back on my part was 3 years (timing is everything) and probably even less because now I charge my 2 Chevy Volts and have reduced my gasoline expenses by about 90%, nice going into retirement. Soon after completion the utility started to reduce the rebates, a pretty narrow window of opportunity for me.

A well planned grid-tie and a TOU plan with net-metering that lines up is still a financially smart thing to do, mostly the payback is about 5 years now. The Utility here has reduced the rebates to about $0.10 a watt but the Fed and State tax credits still apply, and install costs are actually under $4.00 a watt now. Mostly the best payback is to just replace the max kWh on a TOU plan to reduce the bill the maximum with the minimal install costs.

BB. · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

There is one new wrinkle for some folks now... Utilities are seeing that their current billing structure (and state/federal mandates regarding "green power") are starting to impact their bottom lines.

The old method of charging a few bucks a month for a connection fee (my electrical connection fee is ~$4.00 per month) and a "high" per kWH charge (mine run from $0.09 to $0.30 to $0.50 per kWH depending on time of day, season, how much power I use, etc.)...

For my utility, people that use a lot of power (over ~900 kWH per month) can save lots of money because of the very high per kWH charges ($0.30+ per kWH)--GT solar (and perhaps some Off Grid/Hybrid power) can meet or beat those costs... Chopping off utility profits from large consumers.

So--Now some utilities are charging upwards of $40 to $90 per month connection charges and $0.06 or so for per kWH charges...

When that happens, solar GT and conservation are hardly worth the costs to implement--Because even if you reduce your kWH usage "a lot", the monthly line connection/billing charges are still there.

Then--some folks that have really hit conservation (small homes, seasonal homes, etc.) are finding that the high connection fees are running their monthly bills over the costs they can achieve with disconnecting the utility and doing full off grid (with some generator support).

After the utility sees that people are not willing to pay the high connection (or high kWH) charges--Their lobbyists go to city/county officials and get laws passed that you cannot get a final sign-off on your building/remodel permits unless you have Utility Power.

In my state, if I were to leave the grid and use Solar or other source of power, I would have to pay "stranding charges" (it is called something different, don't remember the proper term) for the privilege of not connection to my utility.

Of course, there is the buying of new batteries ever ~5-10 years, new electronics (inverters, charge controllers, etc.) every 10+ years--Does raise the costs. With an off grid system, you are probably looking at ~$1 to $2+ per kWH, although, there are some folks here looking at $0.50-$1.00 per kHW for their off grid power costs...

Power usage is a high personal choice--We try to approach the "issue" according to the poster's needs--And fashion a solution that can meet those needs. And "extreme conservation" is usually a big help in keeping off grid capital/maintenance costs low. But with modern energy efficient appliances--that can still mean that you could run an A/C and/or heat pump system (or electric heat pump water heater) off of solar too... It is not just for grid use any more.

-Bill

ggunn · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Congratulations! You are one of the few people I have "met" that has seen thru the "green hype", put the calculator to it and figured out that generating your own power is LOTS more expensive than buying it from the utility company.

I disagree that there are only a few people who can perceive the real economics involved in renewable energy. I agree that buying an off-grid system in an area where the grid is available and dependable is a useless expense, but there are plenty of shades of gray between the black and the white.

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

ggunn wrote: »

I disagree that there are only a few people who can perceive the real economics involved in renewable energy. I agree that buying an off-grid system in an area where the grid is available and dependable is a useless expense, but there are plenty of shades of gray between the black and the white.

I sure hope you're right, ggunn; we've been explaining the economics of solar here on this forum for years now. Surely someone has clued in?

ggunn · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

I sure hope you're right, ggunn; we've been explaining the economics of solar here on this forum for years now. Surely someone has clued in?

I think I know where Chris is coming from, though. In a previous job I sometimes manned a booth at solar trade shows. When the tire kickers would come by the booth and tell me that they wanted to "go solar", I would ask them what they wanted to do with a PV system. A frequent answer would be "I want to get off the grid." The condensed version of what I would tell them is "No, you don't."

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

ggunn wrote: »

I think I know where Chris is coming from, though. In a previous job I sometimes manned a booth at solar trade shows. When the tire kickers would come by the booth and tell me that they wanted to "go solar", I would ask them what they wanted to do with a PV system. A frequent answer would be "I want to get off the grid." The condensed version of what I would tell them is "No, you don't."

Yes; the fallacy that because you're not paying a utility bill your electricity is free. (Just ignore that $20,000+ up-front capital investment.)

ChrisOlson · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

ggunn wrote: »

I think I know where Chris is coming from, though. In a previous job I sometimes manned a booth at solar trade shows. When the tire kickers would come by the booth and tell me that they wanted to "go solar", I would ask them what they wanted to do with a PV system. A frequent answer would be "I want to get off the grid." The condensed version of what I would tell them is "No, you don't."

If you base it all on economics and think you are going to save money by putting in RE power, then the correct answer, to my way of thinking, is "No, you won't".

But there's other reasons for doing it when you have grid power - the primary being a person wanting to make a statement and show other folks that there is a viable alternative way to do it, and that you can reduce your environmental impact on the earth by choosing to generate your electricity from a clean power source. But, unfortunately, the first thing most people ask is, "how much money will I save".

There's way too many installers and people in the solar and wind business pushing their wares, mostly to grid-tied folks, on the basis that you're going to save money on your utility bill. Well, of course you will save on the utility bill. But what they fail to tell is that the up-front cost of doing it will typically buy you grid power for longer than the equipment lasts to generate your own. And that's where I'm coming from. People need to be realistic and if their realism is based only on the bottom line - my advice is "forget it".

Edit:
Frankly, nothing irks me more than people that don't know us coming to visit our place, seeing what we have, and the first thing out of their mouth is, "I wish could do this and not have an electric bill". It's never, "my gosh - you have a beautiful place here, totally sustainable and independent and I wish I could have that lifestyle". Nope - the first they associate with it is money and how much WE save compared to what THEY spend on grid power.

Sorry, but that's not how it works. We spend WAAAY more for every kilowatt-hour than they do.
--
Chris

icarus · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

I could supply all my electical needs with the Honda Eu1000, even running a battery bank on 50 gallons of fuel per year, maybe a bit more. The "cost" of that would be say $250/yr for fuel, plus say $100/year for genny amortization, and another $100/yr for battery replacement.

My PV system (exclusives of batteries) might cost $2000 to reproduce. Give that 20 years and it s a cost of ~$100/yr. So, on a yer round basis, my system is about as cheap as using a genny/battery system. So at 1kwh/day, my cost is somewhere in the $1/kwh.

If I could plug into the grid, I could get that same kwh for ~$.15.

All that said, if I only lived in my place 1 month a year, the gas genny would win hands down over the PV. We choose to use PV so we have 24/7 power with reliability, and no noise.

Tony

ggunn · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

ChrisOlson wrote: »

There's way too many installers and people in the solar and wind business pushing their wares, mostly to grid-tied folks, on the basis that you're going to save money on your utility bill. Well, of course you will save on the utility bill. But what they fail to tell is that the up-front cost of doing it will typically buy you grid power for longer than the equipment lasts to generate your own.

That's not necessarily true. For off-grid systems you are of course spot on, but grid tied systems can be economically advantageous in the long term.

solar_dave · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

ggunn wrote: »

That's not necessarily true. For off-grid systems you are of course spot on, but grid tied systems can be economically advantageous in the long term.

For sure but you need to have the time to recover your outlay.

Eric L · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

I built mine primarily for enjoyment. It was part of a conscious decision my wife and I made to try to produce more of what we consumed (both food and energy) ourselves. I also liked the challenge of designing and building it, and the ongoing challenge of finding new ways to use it efficiently. It certainly wasn't about making a statement; it's stuck back in the woods, invisible to the public, and few of our acquaintances even know it exists unless they visit us.

I well knew when I designed it that it would not save any money. It's actually doing a lot better in this respect than I initially figured though, thanks in large part to opportunity load ideas I've gleaned on forums like this one. Even so, it will probably never pay for itself after equipment replacement is factored in, although it could get close. But nor is it likely to end up costing more than a few thousand dollars, even under an adverse scenario.

Is that "too much for a hobby"? Certainly not for me, but everyone is different here I guess.

ggunn · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

solar_dave wrote: »

For sure but you need to have the time to recover your outlay.

Hence the "long term" in my statement.

ggunn · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

Eric L wrote: »

I built mine primarily for enjoyment. It was part of a conscious decision my wife and I made to try to produce more of what we consumed (both food and energy) ourselves. I also liked the challenge of designing and building it, and the ongoing challenge of finding new ways to use it efficiently. It certainly wasn't about making a statement; it's stuck back in the woods, invisible to the public, and few of our acquaintances even know it exists unless they visit us.

I well knew when I designed it that it would not save any money. It's actually doing a lot better in this respect than I initially figured though, thanks in large part to opportunity load ideas I've gleaned on forums like this one. Even so, it will probably never pay for itself after equipment replacement is factored in, although it could get close. But nor is it likely to end up costing more than a few thousand dollars, even under an adverse scenario.

Is that "too much for a hobby"? Certainly not for me, but everyone is different here I guess.

You'll get no flack from me. I recently paid over $2000 for a bass guitar and I am not a professional musician.

Eric L · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

I recently paid over $2000 for a bass guitar and I am not a professional musician.

That kind of thing is de rigueur for Austin though. My brother's the same way (long time Austinite, some-time bass player).

ggunn · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

Eric L wrote: »

That kind of thing is de rigueur for Austin though. My brother's the same way (long time Austinite, some-time bass player).

Who does he play with?

Eric L · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

Craig Ross in the '90s. Gretchen Phillips until recently. Right now I'm not sure; he's just a working joe I think.

tons001 · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

Eric L wrote: »

I built mine primarily for enjoyment. It was part of a conscious decision my wife and I made to try to produce more of what we consumed (both food and energy) ourselves. I also liked the challenge of designing and building it, and the ongoing challenge of finding new ways to use it efficiently. It certainly wasn't about making a statement; it's stuck back in the woods, invisible to the public, and few of our acquaintances even know it exists unless they visit us.

I well knew when I designed it that it would not save any money. It's actually doing a lot better in this respect than I initially figured though, thanks in large part to opportunity load ideas I've gleaned on forums like this one. Even so, it will probably never pay for itself after equipment replacement is factored in, although it could get close. But nor is it likely to end up costing more than a few thousand dollars, even under an adverse scenario.

Is that "too much for a hobby"? Certainly not for me, but everyone is different here I guess.

Agreed. I needed a hobby and this is turning out to be a fun one. Expensive but fun.

WillBkool · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

For me, I live in an area that gets hit by hurricanes every 9-10 years, sometimes more often. I've been without power for up to a week before and didn't like it. Every year I buy something that would help me if the power goes out, electric lanterns, propane stove, then a generator, then a small window AC, fans, etc. I also buy gas and put stabilizer in it, and then burn it in my car after hurricane season is over. We get shorter power outages from lightning, squirrels hitting a transformer, car hits a pole, whatever, sometimes up to 8-12 hours.

I was lucky enough to get some AGM batteries at work when they converted from an old style phone system to a VOIP one. I've always wanted to mess with solar and now I am. It definitely is more expensive than buying gas for my generator, but I like the idea of harvesting power from the sun and plan on using it to power my TV and computer and other small loads daily. And I can't complain about 6 free batteries, although it's costing me a small fortune to get everything else. Although a weeks worth of gasoline is nothing to sneeze at either with today's prices. I've learned an awful lot from this forum and its members and am glad I found it.

ChrisOlson · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

ggunn wrote: »

That's not necessarily true. For off-grid systems you are of course spot on, but grid tied systems can be economically advantageous in the long term.

It can depend on where you live too. In our area a single 250 watt solar panel produces about 160 kWh per year - obviously more in summer and close to nothing in winter. You'll pay at least $300 for a good quality 250 watt panel. With grid power at 15 cents/kWh it takes 12.5 years to recover the cost of just that one panel in electricity it produces. And that does not include cost of wiring, controllers or inverter, or fixed charges that are imposed to sell back to the utility.

The utility company here charges a $47.50/month net metering fee for the privilege of using their grid system to sell your power to them. It requires 317 kWh/month that you "sell" back to them, or 6 kW installed capacity, JUST to cover the net metering fee for hooking your grid-tie inverter to their grid.

So basically, I have yet to see any grid-tied system that has ever paid for itself unless there is a utility kick-back (like FIT in Canada), government subsidy, or some other financial incentive to make it economically feasible. And anybody that thinks otherwise is not dealing with all the numbers because even the multi-megawatt solar generating plants that have been built cannot compete pricewise with cost of power from coal-fired plants on the wholesale market.
--
Chris

waynefromnscanada · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Congratulations! You are one of the few people I have "met" that has seen thru the "green hype", put the calculator to it and figured out that generating your own power is LOTS more expensive than buying it from the utility company.Chris

WHAT are you saying man!?!?!?
Are you telling me that if I buy a $300 solar panel from my local auto supply store and stick it on my roof - - that all my energy problems and the related cost will NOT a thing of the past??? How can that be? It is after all a 35 watt panel, and the solar educational information they handed out, assures me I'll have free electricity for life!
How can I believe you guys - - why should I believe you guys, when all the nice shiny promo stuff my local big box automobile supply store tells me something so totally different??????
Now if you'll excuse me, I just realized I forgot to take my evening happy pills.

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Why do this?

Wayne, I think maybe you've taken too many happy pills.
Or someone has anyway.

Why do this?

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