4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

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Dolly Bee
Dolly Bee Solar Expert Posts: 30
Hello - will be setting up off grid power. I understand 4 batteries are OK - Is there any reason why I can't use 6 batteries ??
If I'm going to swipe the golf cart batteries (trojan T105) for the summer, might as well swipe all 6 I'm thinking.
24v system with 6 solar panels 250 watt ea.
Thanks
Dolly Bee

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    Well with a 24 Volt system six 6 Volt batteries doesn't work: you need four in series to make 24 Volts.

    Do you mean four or six parallel strings of batteries? Every time you increase the number of parallel battery strings you increase the probability of imbalance between them.

    Six 250 Watt panels is 1500 Watts, which is about right for 480 Amp hours @ 24 Volts, or two parallel strings of four 220 Amp hour 6 Volt batteries.
  • Dolly Bee
    Dolly Bee Solar Expert Posts: 30
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    Thanks Cariboocoot.

    Understand - needs to be kept in series of 4 batteries. (like most pictures I have seen appear)

    So 1 string of 4 batteries should work - but 2 strings of 4 batteries would be better - yes ??

    However, 1 string of much older batteries - plus - another string of new batteries - is not good - is that correct ??

    I know not to mix old batteries with new batteries in one string - understand not good for newer batteries.

    No doubt I'll try to work with 1 string of 4 batteries.
    If old hubby is not happy this summer and old dog not wanting to learn new trick of conserving electricity - then my summer work/play trip may have to be cut short for a while. It will not be a total loss as I'll still bring the solar here and use it in the shop (as is plan now). If I run low on battery power I can switch to local electricity (more cloudy here, etc). Then some day figure a way to get 2 vehicles moved, but only 1 driver, so I can go to the mountains for the summer and more. yea
    Cross that bridge when I get there.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    If one one string of batteries will supply your power requirements that's all you need. However, the current potential of that big of an array (48 Amps) on 220 Amp hours of battery is extreme: 21% charge rate. Under those circumstances I'd recommend you program the controller to limit current to 15% maximum, and be happy that the "extra" panel will help supply charging when the sun doesn't shine so bright.

    If 220 Amp hours @ 24 Volts doesn't meet your power needs you can charge twice that with the array. As for mixing old and new batteries, it depends on how old the batteries are: both in terms of years and use. If they still read full SG after a charge and don't have wide differences between cells and are only a year or two old it won't make much difference. The trouble is that batteries lose capacity over time, and if you pair "old" with new it's like putting smaller batteries together with larger ones; something will suffer and it's usually the new batteries don't get fully recharged, effectively taking them down in capacity immediately. They don't get better after that.

    Moving two vehicles with one driver can be done. How easy it is depends on which two vehicles and how far they have to move. Trailer, car dolley, tow bar ... or walk back and forth between the two for the whole distance. :p
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    You should be able to go with upwards of 20-25% rate of charge--However, I would recommend that you get the remote battery temperature sensor option for your charge controller (if it has one available). One of the issues with high charge rates (other than the cost of the "extra" solar panels and that batteries are recharged by noon or sooner--so "wasted energy" unless you have a lot of day time loads) is that batteries can get hot with >~13% rate of charge--And hot batteries require lower charging voltages.

    A charge controller can get confused (sees lower charging voltages and "thinks" the batteries need more charging current)--Batteries get hotter and voltage falls even more--And you get thermal run-away.

    The problem with mixing battery ages is that the newer batteries can end up carrying more of the loads and aging quicker while the old batteries do less of the work. Also, you get problem of having to monitor/debugging your battery bank and having to replace part of it a few years down the road (and the possibility of a failing cell/battery causing damage to other good batteries if the failure is not caught quickly).

    Mixed banks can work--It is just more work to keep everything working well. Sort of like replacing one bad tire at a time on a car... It will work, but not a lot of fun to keep on top of the problems and the "risk" of a flat/failure due to the oldest tire.

    If you have a working bank and even an "over sized" array--Why not try the system as is. You will get experience and when the battery bank needs to be eventually replaced, you can size the battery bank to your, now known, needs.

    If this is going to be a new install--Look at getting some "less expensive" batteries for your first bank or two. Between learning about your new off grid needs, most people end up killing there first bank well before its time. Poor maintenance, somebody leaves a load on when going on a trip. Kids/friends come by for a visit and leave all the lights/TVs/hair driers running. A water pump switch fails and leaves the pump running for a couple days before anyone notices... Etc.

    My personal recommendation is to try for one string of batteries (i.e., larger AH capacity cells, drop from 12 volt to 6 volt to 4 volt to 2 volt "batteries", etc.) and 2-3 strings maximum (some people like two parallel strings--run on one string if a battery fails). There are just more cells to monitor specific gravity, more connections to make/keep clean, more debugging/monitoring to ensure that everything is working well--Each parallel string should have its own fuse/breaker to protect against short circuits, etc....

    Batteries just do not "share current" well. Proper Wiring helps, and today you can get pretty cheap DC Current Clamp Meters which makes it very easy/safe to check that each string is taking its "fair share" of charging/loading current.

    There are certainly people with parallel battery banks (and more than 3 parallel strings) that are very happy with their installation and battery life--It is just something I would suggest you reduce to 2 or 1 string if possible. Most people really do not like the extra maintenance/work involved to keep everything working well (in some areas where you cannot get larger AH cells, there is no real choice--and they have to build a bank out of whatever they can get--have to make do).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dolly Bee
    Dolly Bee Solar Expert Posts: 30
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    Well dang.
    I have tried to answer 2 times and it tells me I have timed out - hit the back button and reload.
    Back button - OK - reload - were ??
    Guess I type too slow or too much or both.
    How do I find what was saved and get it posted ??
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??
    Dolly Bee wrote: »
    Well dang.
    I have tried to answer 2 times and it tells me I have timed out - hit the back button and reload.
    Back button - OK - reload - were ??
    Guess I type too slow or too much or both.
    How do I find what was saved and get it posted ??

    If you try to reply to the thread right away after a time-out drop you should have a "Restore From Autosave" option in the lower left corner. But if you have already posted something that will wipe out what was previously saved.
  • Dolly Bee
    Dolly Bee Solar Expert Posts: 30
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    Thanks - It's late - I'll try again tomorrow.
    Hope I can remember what I was thinking then.
    Appreciate all help and walking suggestions. ;-)
  • eriksun
    eriksun Registered Users Posts: 1
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    Hi Bill,

    Do you know of any other manufacturers that make more precise DC amp meters? From the reviews on the one you linked it seems its not the greatest one, but after a bit of a google search I couldn't really find anything.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??
    eriksun wrote: »
    Do you know of any other manufacturers that make more precise DC amp meters? From the reviews on the one you linked it seems its not the greatest one, but after a bit of a google search I couldn't really find anything.

    I'm not Bill, but I can say its no fluke:p that he suggested the one he did...

    .
    .
    .
    Search for Fluke meters ... very high quality.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    Fluke is going to be a very nice current clamp meter. Here is the 325 Fluke AC/DC DMM with True RMS reading. (otherwise similar functions to Sears unit).

    http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/Clamp-Meters/Fluke-325-True-rms-Clamp-Meter.htm?PID=74609

    $185 from Amazon.

    The only problem I had with the Sears unit is the thermal couple probe failed almost immediately (do not use, so never bothered to get it replaced).

    There is a similar Radio Shack DC Current Clamp Meter, and at least one person here had problems with the DC current readings (as I recall).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dolly Bee
    Dolly Bee Solar Expert Posts: 30
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    Beats me - I tried again.
    Same token expired, hit back and reload. Did that.
    I see "auto save" flash on and off as I type in lower right corner. so it auto-saved it somewhere.
    This time I tried typing on reply to thread instead of this quick reply.
    nope.
    No option of "restore from autosave" that I can see lower left or anywhere.
    frustrating.
    Guess it thinks what I had to say was not important enough to bother other people - maybe it is right.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??
    Dolly Bee wrote: »
    Beats me - I tried again.
    Same token expired, hit back and reload. Did that.
    I see "auto save" flash on and off as I type in lower right corner. so it auto-saved it somewhere.
    This time I tried typing on reply to thread instead of this quick reply.
    nope.
    No option of "restore from autosave" that I can see lower left or anywhere.
    frustrating.
    Guess it thinks what I had to say was not important enough to bother other people - maybe it is right.

    Whoops.
    It won't work that way: from "backing up". You have to "start again" and re-respond to the post for the autosave content to be there. If you back up it "starts anew" and the minute you see that yellow "autosaved" sign flash your previous content is gone.

    Less than perfect, but aren't we all? :p
  • tons001
    tons001 Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
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    Re: 4 batteries - yes, OK - 6 batteries OK ??

    This is the one I have. It was not cheap but I needed it for my field of work. It just so happens that it works well for my solar hobby as well! :p

    http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/electrical-test-tools/clamp-meters/fluke-376.htm?PID=70403