KWH

Tooltime
Tooltime Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
OK, This may seem as though I am just a little stupid. Per a different post thread, its looks like I should maybe go with a real fridge rather then stick with an LP RV style. Now with that being said, I am still having a hard time with the kwh thing. When a manufacture says there unit will use 382 kwh per year. what does that mean to me per day? How much is this really going to cost me during the long winter months and short days. I know am running 10 120 watt panels and 8 105wh batteries. I hope to have another 1200 watts up before winter.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: KWH
    Tooltime wrote: »
    OK, This may seem as though I am just a little stupid. Per a different post thread, its looks like I should maybe go with a real fridge rather then stick with an LP RV style. Now with that being said, I am still having a hard time with the kwh thing. When a manufacture says there unit will use 382 kwh per year. what does that mean to me per day? How much is this really going to cost me during the long winter months and short days. I know am running 10 120 watt panels and 8 105wh batteries. I hope to have another 1200 watts up before winter.
    It means a smidge over 1kWh/day, on the average. Ambient conditions matter, though; it will use more when it is in a warm environment than when the air around it is cool.
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  • Panamretiree
    Panamretiree Solar Expert Posts: 278 ✭✭
    #3
    Re: KWH
    Tooltime wrote: »
    OK, This may seem as though I am just a little stupid. Per a different post thread, its looks like I should maybe go with a real fridge rather then stick with an LP RV style. Now with that being said, I am still having a hard time with the kwh thing. When a manufacture says there unit will use 382 kwh per year. what does that mean to me per day? How much is this really going to cost me during the long winter months and short days. I know am running 10 120 watt panels and 8 105wh batteries. I hope to have another 1200 watts up before winter.

    Completed my load analysis a month or so ago and used a Kill-A-Watt meter to determine actual power usage. I have found that manufacturers specify what is the end result, not what has to go into their product to get the stated power out. In this case, your fridge is rated at 382 kWh per year. The hourly power consumption would be 382/365/24=43.6W. For a fridge I would use a 5% additional power factor because to get 43.6 kWh (could be more or less depending) out you must put in more power from wherever. Using this factor it is now 43.6 W*1.05=45.787 W. For the year it would be: 45.787*24*365=401.099 kWh. This may not seem like much, an additional 20 kWh, but on a battery based system as you know it does change your requirements, especially since all appliances have the same issue.

    JMHO.

    Cheers

    Ernest
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: KWH

    Take the kW hours per year, divide by 365, then factor in how much they are lying due to fudged testing conditions.

    That last part is the difficult one. ;)
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  • SandyP
    SandyP Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: KWH
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Take the kW hours per year, divide by 365, then factor in how much they are lying due to fudged testing conditions.

    That last part is the difficult one. ;)

    From a paper in Aus re manufacturers fudging the numbers :


    AN ELECTRONICS manufacturer with a history of making false environmental claims has been caught doctoring fridges to make them appear more energy efficient.

    LG Electronics has agreed to compensate potentially thousands of consumers after two of its fridges - models L197NFS and P197WFS - were found to contain an illegal device that activates an energy-saving mode when it detects room conditions similar to those in a test laboratory.

    The so-called circumvention device was discovered last month by the consumer advocacy group, Choice.

    The device detects test conditions - typically 22 degrees - and activates the energy-saving mode, creating the impression of lower running costs and energy usage. The devices have been banned in Australia since 2007.

    Advertisement In reality the fridge, which has a 3.5 star energy rating, costs an extra $250 to run over 10 years and can severely affect food quality because the fridge can shut off when opened.

    Choice's tests found the energy consumption of the fridge was 876 kilowatt hours a year, compared to the advertised 738kWh.

    Yesterday, the chief executive of Choice, Nick Stace, said the fridge was an extreme example of a company making false or misleading environmental claims, known as ''greenwashing''.

    ''This fridge is both a potential danger to your food, your wallet and the environment,'' Mr Stace told the Choice National Consumer Congress at Luna Park.

    LG Electronics has agreed to pay affected customers $331 to cover the unexpected increase in their power bills, but has not agreed to refund the purchase price of the fridge.

    It is the third time LG Electronics has been caught making false claims about the environmental credentials of its products.

    In 2008, it had to repay $3 million after the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission ruled it had inflated the energy-efficiency star rating of five models of air-conditioner.

    The Herald understands the ACCC is investigating the latest matter. An ACCC deputy chairman, Peter Kell, would not comment on the investigation, but said consumer laws due to be introduced this year would give regulators greater powers to police claims.

    He said the new legislation, the biggest overhaul of consumer law since the 1970s, would give the ACCC the power to force companies to substantiate environmental, health and other claims, as well as the power to enforce harsher penalties.

    From April 1, a new star rating labelling system and energy rating calculation will be introduced for all fridges.

    A spokeswoman for electrical retailer, The Good Guys, said it received a manufacturer's recall notice from LG for the L197NFS fridge on February 26.

    She said the company would offer customers a full refund and would pursue the matter with LG Electronics.

    LG Electronics failed to return calls from the Herald yesterday.



    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/green-fridge-labelled-a-fraud-20100316-qclx.html#ixzz2W0SCThje
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: KWH

    Do you suppose they do that with the ratings on their mini-splits as well? Don't see why not.

    Ralph
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: KWH

    Gee, I thought the problem was limited to letting them do their own testing (over here anyway) wherein they set the internal temp as high as possible, disconnect the wires to the defrost system, and run the thing full of ice in a room cooled down to 8C.

    Seems a bit extreme to actually install some extra circuitry to 'fix' the numbers. Which leads to the question of just what it really does and is it really cheating if it can cut back on energy use when that extra energy is not really needed to maintain proper refrigeration temperatures? For example a humidity sensor that disconnects auto-defrost if humidity isn't an issue wouldn't really be cheating, would it?
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: KWH
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    Do you suppose they do that with the ratings on their mini-splits as well? Don't see why not.

    Ralph
    If you really want to see examples of the flagrant abuse of specifications and unsubstantiable claims, take a look at the world of high end audio. :D
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: KWH
    ggunn wrote: »
    If you really want to see examples of the flagrant abuse of specifications and unsubstantiable claims, take a look at the world of high end audio. :D

    But everyone wants to listen to music with 99% distortion, don't they? :p
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #10
    Re: KWH

    A guy I worked with years ago used to have a pretty well respected recording studio for Rappers and other similar musicians... Said it was not about fidelity... It was just getting one piece of old audio gear and over driving it before laying down the recordings because "everyone" liked that form distortion.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: KWH
    SandyP wrote: »
    From a paper in Aus re manufacturers fudging the numbers

    I seem to remember (but can't find reference) a scam at the gas pumps where the meter would read accurately at 5 gallons, but would cheat at other volumes. The scam worked because the dept of weights & measures would check the pumps by filling a calibrated 5 gallon container.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #12
    Re: KWH

    Back from 2007:

    http://voices.yahoo.com/are-getting-scammed-gas-pump-369506.html
    Are you getting scammed at the pump? With the price of gas are store owners really giving you the gas you pump? "When it says its dispensing 5 gallons, are you really getting 5 gallons?" Alan Rogers, program manager for the Virginia Office of Product and Industry Standards says. "We make sure when you purchase 89 octane, you get 89 octane." In California, some stations were using equipment that tricked customers into believing they were getting more gasoline.
    "There is a certain faction that feels they need to make an illicit profit,"
    The gas dealers were especially difficult to catch there because the equipment initially fooled inspectors. While inspectors usually pump 1, 5 or 10 gallons of gasoline for testing, the illegal equipment ensured those amounts dispensed properly. "They were using our own test methods to beat us at our own games," said Rogers. "We started receiving enough complaints to lead us to believe something was going on."
    When undercover inspectors pumped differing amounts of gasoline--such as 6 or 9 gallons--they discovered they were shortchanged by as much as a third. So with scams like this going on we as consumers need to watch out.
    For example, if a gas pump is rigged, the gauge that shows gallon measurements will speed up right after the 1-, 5- and 10-gallon marks, and go really slowly as they approach those points. Also consumers should track their gas mileage and be concerned if it suddenly plummets. If you notice all of a sudden you're getting a lot less miles per gallon, that's usually an indicator. It could be a lower octane fuel. It could be you're not getting everything you pay for.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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