Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
KnowledgeSponge
Solar Expert Posts: 173 ✭✭✭
I have an otimate 4 battery maintainer / "de-sulfater".
The battery maintenance part does a good job. Desulfation? Not so sure.
I have a 4 month old car battery in a car with what turns out to be a bad alternator that is only charging the battery 60%
So, I'm using the Optimate on it to try to ensure that if any sulfation has developed, it removes at lest some of the sulfation from the plates.
Here's a video of it in action...
[video]http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/urbansurvivalist/media/optimate_zpsc88c8085.mp4.html[/video]
Has anyone else used a de-sulfater? I know they make real ones that have lots more output.
The battery maintenance part does a good job. Desulfation? Not so sure.
I have a 4 month old car battery in a car with what turns out to be a bad alternator that is only charging the battery 60%
So, I'm using the Optimate on it to try to ensure that if any sulfation has developed, it removes at lest some of the sulfation from the plates.
Here's a video of it in action...
[video]http://s1079.photobucket.com/user/urbansurvivalist/media/optimate_zpsc88c8085.mp4.html[/video]
Has anyone else used a de-sulfater? I know they make real ones that have lots more output.
Comments
-
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
Been hearing of them for years, heard of some recalls because they ruined batteries because they were left on and drained the battery while the owner was away. Other than that, never ever heard of any solid evidence they were of any help whatever. Yes, a few people believe they were helped, but I also believe eating toenail clippings relieve the pain one's knee. In either case, solid scientific proof is missing. Those who sell them of course will provide you with "proof" they work. Buyer beware. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
Desulfators--Not too many people use them. Many who have used them have "mixed"/indeterminate results. And a few are true believers.
Desulfator discussions have lead to one of the few threads that were ever deleted (in my years here) because of flaming.
The one caution I would give--We have at least one demonstrated issue here where using a desulfator (which produce electrical noise--very spiky current pulses on purpose) actually confused a couple of MPPT Charge controllers (Outbacks, different models on same battery bank) such that they dramatically reduced there overall output current and how much power could be harvested on a sunny day.
The person turned off the desulfator, and both charge controllers worked much better (30% or more improvement in output to battery bank???).
Do they hurt a battery bank--Probably not. Do they help a healthy battery bank last longer (maybe, maybe not). Do they fix badly sulfated batteries (even if they can, nobody claims a 100% success rate--probably closer to 10-25% success rate of those that have success).
But, again, this is from my reading of the subject. I have never used one. And I don't have an off grid system to try it on. And, with the possible issues of Radio Frequency Interference, I would not plan on using one.
Just my personal opinion/observation. I am sure that others here have differing opinions
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
"Supposedly", desulfation is not so much guess work as scientific knowledge now.
But I think it takes a lot of battery smarts to understand it and properly apply it.
I used to work in a warehouse with fork lifts.
Needless to say, the large, National company we had to service them used de-sufating equipment on forklift batteries which could run $5,000 each or more.
That told me desulfation was real and it worked.
So, I think there's ample proof it is a real science and fact behind it, but most people cannot probably afford the equipment to do it properly.
But imho, the biggest benefit might be helping a battery that has mild sulfation.
If you think about it, almost all batteries not carefully maintained will suffer some sulfation.
But it's actually reversed by the simple act of recharging. It's just a chemical process.
This small device, the Optimate, may not have the ability to do much.
I can say that once I did have a motorcycle battery that would not crank over the motor so rather than throw it out,
I put it on this device for several weeks.
I was able to use it successfully in that same motorcycle for about 2 more years afterwards.
The key being the TIME it took to make a difference. I may have used $50 in electricity to save a $50 battery though (lol) -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
Like was suggested. Some people are believers, others are not. If someone was able to sell such units, then obviously it's money in their pockets.
Beyond that, again as suggested, you will find believers and non-believers wherever you go. Selling something or using something, is not scientific proof it works, but to each his or her own. Just because I'm among the non-believers until I'm presented with actual, legit scientific proof, does not mean you won't find believers on this forum, and some of them may even be stronger believers than you yourself. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfationwaynefromnscanada wrote: »Like was suggested. Some people are believers, others are not. If someone was able to sell such units, then obviously it's money in their pockets.
Beyond that, again as suggested, you will find believers and non-believers wherever you go. Selling something or using something, is not scientific proof it works, but to each his or her own. Just because I'm among the non-believers until I'm presented with actual, legit scientific proof, does not mean you won't find believers on this forum, and some of them may even be stronger believers than you yourself.
Your opinion is clear and duly noted.
thx :cool: -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
Battery manufacturers usually recommed against de-sulfators, but that could be because they're overly cautions. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationBattery manufacturers usually recommed against de-sulfators, but that could be because they're overly cautions.
lol -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
All the ones I have seen in use seem work great, the LED's are on so they must be working, right ?? -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationBlackcherry04 wrote: »All the ones I have seen in use seem work great, the LED's are on so they must be working, right ??
Well, the world was once thought to be flat also and that the Sun revolved around the Earth.
Do wise men come to conclusions without proof?
So much sarcasm.
I'm not advocating FOR desulfators. In fact, the OP says that.
But if there's no "proof" either way, who has the definitive answer?
I think a chemist would be the best person to answer the question.
I'll contact a chemistry professor at a state University.
THAT's an answer I would trust.
I'll let you know what a chemistry professional says. It may be a while.
Stay tuned...... -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
I probably own at least 8 of them and they are everyone installed on a set of Batteries. I have a test set of 5 on a 10 battery set of GC-2's all paralleled @ 12v, that are in their 3 year. My goal was not to prove to anyone but myself if they made that set of batteries easier to maintain. Time will tell I guess.KnowledgeSponge wrote: »Well, the world was once thought to be flat also and that the Sun revolved around the Earth.
Do wise men come to conclusions without proof?
So much sarcasm.
I'm not advocating FOR desulfators. In fact, the OP says that.
But if there's no "proof" either way, who has the definitive answer?
I think a chemist would be the best person to answer the question.
I'll contact a chemistry professor at a state University.
THAT's an answer I would trust.
I'll let you know what a chemistry professional says. It may be a while.
Stay tuned...... -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
These have been discussed on the forum before.
It is impossible to tell if they work because you can not get any two batteries to sulphate exactly the same.
The principal behind their claimed function is suspect: applying high frequency to the plates to knock sulphate off. Since there are two kinds of sulphation - soft (which occurs during normal battery cycling and is not permanent) and hard (which is long-term occurring coating) - and they do not specifically address which these devices deal with it is doubtful they deal with either in reality.
As far as anecdotal evidence is concerned there is nothing to indicate that using one results in any greater battery life/performance than mere proper charging except for opinion (usually of the people selling them).
In 50 years of dealing with various batteries and chargers I have seen absolutely no real evidence that desulphators do anything other than empty your wallet a little more. Do try to remember that a normal solar charge controller (and almost all battery charges) pulse themselves so to add an additional pulsing charge (the method by which these are claimed to work) would be somewhat redundant.
But hey; it's not my money you're spending. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
It appears that while there is an abundance of sarcasm, noone knows the answer.
Personally, I couldn't care less either way...but I would like to know the facts. It's the "KnowledgeSponge" thing
Let's get some facts and scientific basis to either support or debunk the claim.
I have contacted several CHEMISTRY PROFFESSORS at random state Universities.
I will accept THEIR answers as the defacto resolution to this question.
Here's one already sent....waiting for replies...
Dr. Jerome E. Haky
Associate Professor and Interim Department Chair
Charles E. Schmidt College of Science
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry
Ph.D., Case Western Reserve, 1981
Dear Dr. Haky,
How are you?
Thank you for reading my email.
There is a debate going on at one of the forums I visit concerning Solar Power.
The topic is 12v Battery sulfation and electro-chemical processes that allegedly can reverse battery sulfation.
If there is any light you, or anyone at FAU in the Chemistry department could shed on this topic?
Is it even chemically possible to reverse the crystallization of lead sulphate that forms on lead/acid battery plates using high voltage?
Your response would be greatly appreciated.
Best Regards,
-
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
No sarcasm on my part: I just explained the facts.
1). "Proof" provided by someone trying to sell you something should always be suspect.
2). There is a difference between preventing hard sulphation and correcting it. Preventing it can be done to some degree with proper charging; there is zero scientific evidence that any desulphators do any better than that.
3). Any real testing of desulphators is practically impossible because no two batteries (even the 'same' ones) will sulphate identically even under controlled conditions. Any test would need to be run for more than 5 years to produce any viable results.
4). There is zero scientific evidence that desulphators can correct hard sulphation any better than standard chargers.
5). Desulphators supposedly work by applying frequency pulsing to the plates (exact frequency varies with the particular unit). Normal battery chargers will do this same thing, as the method of controlling Voltage level is to turn the current on and off - sometimes very rapidly indeed.
If you want to research it yourself go ahead. But be skeptical until someone can supply some absolute, independent, scientific evidence that there is no doubt one of these will do what it claims. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
And remember we did have proof that on at least one installation that the desulfators provided enough "electrical noise" on the battery bus to reduce the output performance of the MPPT charge controllers by quite a bit (1/3rd or more???).
If you use a desulfator, you should at least do an A/B test with your charge controller(s) and see if there is a reduction in peak charging current or not.
And as Marc/Cariboocoot says, the desulfators simple supply a very narrow current pulse to "vibrate" the crystalline lead sulfate. Most any PWM or MPPT charge controller naturally does that with the "square wave output" as they throttle back the charging current (absorb/float).
Batteries fail in some many ways and it can take so many years that it has been very difficult to compare battery failures and actually prove that a desulfator did anything positive or not.
Here is our host's website for a desulfator they sell:When batteries age and/or spend too much time in a discharged or abused state, sulphite crystals can form on the battery plates which inpede the flow of electricity and is a major cause of poor battery performance. This unit is a basic battery desulphator with advanced control techniques. This unit emphasizes extremely low cost and premium performance.
Sulphite crystals form when the battery charge is reduced and/or the discharge/ discharge cycles are not well suited for the battery. These sulphite crystals act as insulators to the flow of electricity in the battery, seriously degrading the capability of the battery to have electricity flow in it, reducing its charging and discharge capability.
Like most battery desulphators, this unit uses a sharp pulse of current forced into the battery suddenly to "jar" the sulphite crystals and cause internal resonances, both mechanical and electrical, to grind down the sulphite crystals that form so they can be re-combined into the battery acid.
For increased performance, this unit precisely controls the magnitude of the sharp pulse of current, which is adjustable by the user. This adjustment is important as no 2 batteries are the same and no 2 battery setups are the same. As well, battery desulphaters, as they work with current spikes, may interfere with equipment connected to the unit. This adjustment allow the user to taylor the both the current spike and at what voltage it is present.
Features
Single unit 12 to 48 V nominal systems Adjustable pulse strength 0.0 Amp pulse to 10 amp pulse LED to indicate unit operating LED to indicate relative strength of battery Adjustable on/off voltage Can be adjusted to only operate when battery is near full. EXTREMELY low draw
Electrical Specifications Base Model: BD-2 V2
Nominal battery voltages (V) 12 - 48 V DC, Maximum Input (V) 63 V DC
Maximum Pulse Current(A) 10 amps
Range of Pulse Current 0.0 Amps to 10 amps - Adjustable with small screwdriver
Range of On/Off Control 0 V to 70 V - Adjustable with Voltmeter and small screwdriver
Self Consumption < 0.05 ma from battery at full pulse
Efficiency>96% over 20% pulse load
A desulphator will not help batteries with pitted or warped plates, or that have been overcharged to the point where plate damage has occurred. They also will generally not do much for auto starting batteries, since those seldom sit around for days or weeks only partially charged - which is by far the main cause of sulphation.
There is no guarantee that this will help your battery. Our own tests have shown that it seems to help sulfated batteries in otherwise good condition, but it is often hard to tell what a battery's internal problems are.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
And who wouldn't trust our Host ?? -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
An interesting philosophical question:Blackcherry04 wrote: »And who wouldn't trust our Host ??
Would you rather buy a desulfator from someone who wraps the whole discussion with cautions that YMMV and that the technology is unproven or buy exactly the same product from a dealer who swears that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and will work for everybody? Or neither?SMA SB 3000, old BP panels. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
A couple of points:For increased performance, this unit precisely controls the magnitude of the sharp pulse of current, which is adjustable by the user.
And the user knows how to adjust this? Since there is no way of determining function you'd be guessing.This adjustment is important as no 2 batteries are the same and no 2 battery setups are the same.
As I said before. :roll: -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationAn interesting philosophical question:
Would you rather buy a desulfator from someone who wraps the whole discussion with cautions that YMMV and that the technology is unproven or buy exactly the same product from a dealer who swears that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and will work for everybody? Or neither?
I would do my reasearch independently of what dealers say, then I would buy from whoever offers the lowest price. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationI would do my reasearch independently of what dealers say, then I would buy from whoever offers the lowest price.
You mean if you decided to buy the product at all. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
I believe that NAWS said they sold it because some customers ask for it... (not speaking for NAWS, don't work for NAWS, etc...).
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationCariboocoot wrote: »You mean if you decided to buy the product at all.
Exactly.
In this case, I decided not to ...
-
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
I'd love to build two batteries with acrylic cases, then subject them to the same set of regimen's and see if the results were the same. As Coot said no two batteries are the same. One could assume the proof would be that one would have more sediment in the bottom. While that could be a good thing, it could mean something else. Anytime your not re-combining the sulfate your altering the electrolyte. So for now I just like the LED's and the way they sing. 5 of them are like having a choir on a battery bank. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
I put one of the desulfators on my 48V golf cart after my batteries weren't taking a good long charge anymore or lasting as long. After 6 months now, I can say without any prejudice, it hasn't helped at all and was a complete waste of money. I'm still going to have to buy new batteries. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationI put one of the desulfators on my 48V golf cart after my batteries weren't taking a good long charge anymore or lasting as long. After 6 months now, I can say without any prejudice, it hasn't helped at all and was a complete waste of money. I'm still going to have to buy new batteries.
Your statement proves absolutely nothing about de-sulfators.
Except that you may not be aware of the circumstances that can reduce a battery to a useless lead weight and render it unsalvageable.
Kinda like stating you put hi-octane gas in your 17 second car and it still did not run a 10 second quarter mile....then blaming the Gasoline.
There are a lot of reasons a de-sulfator may not recover a battery. Your battery was most likely shorted or failed due to erosion of the positive plates, or hard crystallized.
Not all batteries are reasonable candidates for desulfation as I have read.
I'm neither for nor against de-sulfators.
Proverbially speaking, I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't care.
Just a knowledgeSponge....Scientific facts are the only way to go.
Hopefully some of the Chemistry Professors I wrote will reply soon.
But it's near end of school year and I'm sure they are very busy right now so it may take a while. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationKnowledgeSponge wrote: »Your statement proves absolutely nothing about de-sulfators.
On the contrary. Timinator's experience tells the story of desulphators very well: they are promoted as a cure-all for bad batteries, and yet there is no evidence they actually work.Scientific facts are the only way to go.
This is true. However you seem to be ignoring the facts in favour of some faint hope that somewhere there is a scientist who will prostitute himself to say they are real. Since there is no scientific evidence to date that they do work, there's no reason to continue in the belief that there one day will be.Hopefully some of the Chemistry Professors I wrote will reply soon.
But it's near end of school year and I'm sure they are very busy right now so it may take a while.
Don't put your faith in chemistry professors or other academic either. They can explain exactly the process of sulphation and what will affect it, but there is no way they can say any of these devices do or don't work as they do not test them.
Besides which there is an old and unerring axom: "'twixt theory and fact a lot doth lack".
You're better off believing in Santa Claus; at least he was real once. :roll: -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationCariboocoot wrote: »On the contrary. Timinator's experience tells the story of desulphators very well: they are promoted as a cure-all for bad batteries, and yet there is no evidence they actually work.
Timinator's case is not conclusive because we do not know whether the batteries were sulphated or had some other problem.
Most of other cases that I've read or heard of are of the same nature. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De Sulfation
It's amazing how someone can be so convinced something works, in spite of there being NO tested, proper scientific information that proves anything one way or the other, and all the while claiming to only believe because they follow scientific proof.
To me, it's just another religion, all about belief, regardless of any supporting, or not evidence or proof. Really does make me wonder what's behind it all. -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationI put one of the desulfators on my 48V golf cart after my batteries weren't taking a good long charge anymore or lasting as long.
Yep; that's the effect of sulphation all right. Decrease in actual capacity due to the plates being covered with sulphor.
Now, you were saying? -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationCariboocoot wrote: »Yep; that's the effect of sulphation all right. Decrease in actual capacity due to the plates being covered with sulphor.
Now, you were saying?
Could also be an effect of corrosion of positive plates, or shedding of active material, or simply an effect of old age, or dirty electrolyte, or ...
or sulphation -
Re: Battery Maintenance - De SulfationKnowledgeSponge wrote: »Your statement proves absolutely nothing about de-sulfators.
Except that you may not be aware of the circumstances that can reduce a battery to a useless lead weight and render it unsalvageable.
Kinda like stating you put hi-octane gas in your 17 second car and it still did not run a 10 second quarter mile....then blaming the Gasoline.
There are a lot of reasons a de-sulfator may not recover a battery. Your battery was most likely shorted or failed due to erosion of the positive plates, or hard crystallized.
Not all batteries are reasonable candidates for desulfation as I have read.
I'm neither for nor against de-sulfators.
Proverbially speaking, I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't care.
Just a knowledgeSponge....Scientific facts are the only way to go.
Hopefully some of the Chemistry Professors I wrote will reply soon.
But it's near end of school year and I'm sure they are very busy right now so it may take a while.
I'm not here to "prove" to you it didn't work. But, after talking with the manufacturer regarding my symptoms, they assured me I WAS suffering from sulfated batteries and that their desulfator would restore them. I take very good care of my batteries and have had several golf carts over the last 15 years. I can say, there is no lead-acid battery I know of that performs anywhere near Trojan T105's for golf carts. I'll leave the desulfator on the cart even after I buy the new T-105's and if, 10 years from now I'm still using the same set of T-105's, I'll let you know.
FWIW, I think a PWM charger does more to restore a damaged battery than deslufators.
Categories
- All Categories
- 221 Forum & Website
- 129 Solar Forum News and Announcements
- 1.3K Solar News, Reviews, & Product Announcements
- 192 Solar Information links & sources, event announcements
- 887 Solar Product Reviews & Opinions
- 254 Solar Skeptics, Hype, & Scams Corner
- 22.4K Solar Electric Power, Wind Power & Balance of System
- 3.5K General Solar Power Topics
- 6.7K Solar Beginners Corner
- 1K PV Installers Forum - NEC, Wiring, Installation
- 2K Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum
- 5.5K Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems
- 425 Caravan, Recreational Vehicle, and Marine Power Systems
- 1.1K Grid Tie and Grid Interactive Systems
- 651 Solar Water Pumping
- 815 Wind Power Generation
- 624 Energy Use & Conservation
- 611 Discussion Forums/Café
- 304 In the Weeds--Member's Choice
- 75 Construction
- 124 New Battery Technologies
- 108 Old Battery Tech Discussions
- 3.8K Solar News - Automatic Feed
- 3.8K Solar Energy News RSS Feed