Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

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  • AntronX
    AntronX Solar Expert Posts: 462 ✭✭
    #32
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    Windsun wrote: »
    These cars probably make sense in an urban environment in dense cities, but in cities like Phoenix and Los Angeles, where commutes can be pretty long, maybe not so much.

    That's why Leaf should have small on-board 15 KW generator for electricity during highway driving. Keep it under 100 lbs total. Make it swappable, so in case it fails you can have it pulled under 5 minutes at a dealer shop for servicing, and keep driving your car in electric mode only. How neat would that be? Or to have combined cycle micro gas turbine under the hood, with CO2 for secondary cycle instead of steam, and get 50% fuel-to-electricity conversion efficiency in compact package. Or fuel cell of similar rating, if those can ever be made cheap enough.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    solar_dave wrote: »
    It is not for the "wanting to buy" holding up Volt sales, I have a deposit on one since December from a largish dealer in Michigan making me #7 on his list. He has not been allowed to place the order AFAIK and from what he is telling me. They have only received one car so far. I more suspect it to be production issues with the car.

    Been poking around a bit and did see a couple of them in California last week but both dealers wanted a $5K premium. MSRP is one thing but a premium!

    to my Dealer:
    Would a larger deposit grease the skids some? I have to renew registration on the old car this month otherwise and would prefer not to endure that expense.

    response from my dealer:
    Extra deposit would not help we only get them when GM decides to let them go, and right now they are trying to make sure all dealers get at least one in. Wish we had a little more control but with any new vehicle like this we are at their mercy.

    sure sounds like GM is having issues making many of them.
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  • sub3marathonman
    sub3marathonman Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    #34
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    That really cool sub! didn't know your Pruis was plugin!

    Thanks SG. Actually you are within "all electric range!" I'll drive over there one of these cloudy days. :D

    And, for calculations on EV range, in general 250 watts/mile is considered average. I have managed to to about 230 watts/mile all electric, but that is at speeds 30 mph or less for about 5 miles.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #35
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    It looks like Leaf's in hot regions (Arizona and Texas) may be having "early life ageing" from high ambient temperatures (note the title of the article is "Are Air-Cooled Batteries Hurting Nissan Leaf Range?"--The batteries are not really force air cooled, that was prototypes with fans"--just not a liquid cooling system as other e-cars may have):
    :

    http://www.technologyreview.com/view/429282/are-air-cooled-batteries-hurting-nissan-leaf/
    A group of Nissan Leaf owners on Saturday performed a controlled range test in Phoenix to measure how far 12 of the electric sedans can go compared to the car’s new battery range. The data, published yesterday on the EV enthusiast site Inside EVs, show significant loss of range for many of the cars tested. They were model year 2011 and 2012 Leafs.

    The range loss is due to the loss in battery capacity and not only a dashboard instrumentation problem, as Nissan has told drivers, says Tony Williams, a Leaf owner who collected the data. “A significant percentage (of affected Leaf owners) have owned electric vehicles prior to the Leaf, and many, if not most of those who have traded their faulty Leaf have gotten another electric powered car, like the GM Volt, and like me, another LEAF,” he wrote.


    The battery capacity complaints, which are documented in detail on driver forms, appear to be centered in places with hot climates, such as Arizona and Texas.

    In general, batteries do not like heat (it may be that old rule of 1/2 life for every 10C/18F increase in temperature).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    #36
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    AntronX wrote: »
    That's why Leaf should have small on-board 15 KW generator for electricity during highway driving. Keep it under 100 lbs total.

    A small, cheap 15kW generator will be loud, polluting and weigh about 250lbs. You can quiet it down and improve its emissions at the expense of weight, but at that point you have a Volt, so you might as well just buy one of them.
    Or to have combined cycle micro gas turbine under the hood, with CO2 for secondary cycle instead of steam, and get 50% fuel-to-electricity conversion efficiency in compact package.

    I've never seen "combined cycle" and "small" describe the same system before. The bottom cycle moves low quality heat (i.e. lots of it at low temperature differentials) which means large heat exchangers, radiators etc.

    Why do you even need a generator? Get a 250cc motorcycle, cut it in half, and attach the back half to a trailer hitch on your Leaf. When you need assistance let it push you. No high voltage connections, easy to disconnect.
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #37
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    Some real data here with actual sales figures (that don't look so good) http://seekingalpha.com/article/858721-gm-s-chevrolet-volt-and-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-unpredictable-future-for-electric-cars
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    Windsun wrote: »
    Some real data here with actual sales figures (that don't look so good) http://seekingalpha.com/article/858721-gm-s-chevrolet-volt-and-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-unpredictable-future-for-electric-cars
    Reuters reported some remarkably bleak news on the Volt as recently as yesterday (as of the time this was written). It reported GM is losing thousands on each Volt it sells, mostly due to a high production cost (in the area of $75,000 per Volt) and low lease costs.

    This is so much bull, this number has ranged from 250K to 50K and it is all based on the $1.2 billion GM invested in development divide by the number of cars sold. What other business takes the development of a new product completely out with the first years sales. This just shows this guy is a fact twister and is not to be believed with any of his stats.

    Actually GM says it is clearing about $5K to $6K on every car and as production/sales ramps up their margins should improve. While sales are probably less than they would like, they look like they are going to sell 20,000 Volts this year. This puts them smack dab in the middle of the cars sales by brand/name/type. It also is better than Prius did in its first years.

    http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/rankings/Upscale-Midsize-Cars/

    and

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079306_chevy-volt-outsells-half-the-cars-on-sale-is-that-failure

    and the reference in that article:

    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/09/august-2012-ytd-all-vehicle-rankings.html
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #39
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    Standard business practice is to amortize capital investment in a new product over the years the design is expected to be viable and the projected number of units sold within this time.
    Accounting is the sacred art of fiddling with numbers to get them to say what you want, whereas management is understanding what the numbers really are and actually mean.
    No telling which practice who is using here to try and prove what. :roll:
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    And here is an article about the Leaf from the guy who actually did the test:

    http://insideevs.com/all-the-results-from-the-largest-independent-test-of-nissan-leafs-with-lost-capacity-not-instrument-failure/
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #41
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Standard business practice is to amortize capital investment in a new product over the years the design is expected to be viable and the projected number of units sold within this time.
    Accounting is the sacred art of fiddling with numbers to get them to say what you want, whereas management is understanding what the numbers really are and actually mean.
    No telling which practice who is using here to try and prove what. :roll:

    Exactly, this is all politically motivated and not factual. Come Nov. 7 all this bashing will disappear because there is no motivation to twist the facts.
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  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    #42
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    solar_dave wrote: »
    This is so much bull, this number has ranged from 250K to 50K and it is all based on the $1.2 billion GM invested in development divide by the number of cars sold. What other business takes the development of a new product completely out with the first years sales. This just shows this guy is a fact twister and is not to be believed with any of his stats.
    Yep, he's either completely ignorant of how business accounting works or completely malicious and hoping that sheeple will blindly repeat what he spews.

    I believe it's the latter and what scares me is that it appears to be working based on the random conversation I have about EVs (just like all the Volt fire hoopla which was a complete non-issue).

    I think a large part of it is due to Republican/TeaParty propaganda given how the right has labeled the Volt the "Obamacar" and GM "Government Motors". The right's #1 priority really is to beat Obama at all costs.

    What is crazy is that the Volt in general is a great car for America - made in the USA - engineered and built by well paid employees - significantly reduces gasoline consumption thus sending less oil money overseas - electricity can be anywhere from emissions free when powered by renewables - or at worst powered by coal which is at least sourced from the USA - electricity is all generated locally - no tailpipe emissions which is great as it will typically move the cold-start emissions out on the open highway instead of your driveway and neighborhood.

    The car is a win-win-win all over. But the right would rather have people spending $40k on a gas guzzling Expedition (which also used to qualify for a large tax credit under Bush). The only downside of the Volt is the current cost but that's expected to come down over time (as GM recoups it's $1.2B investment in R&D) and manufacturing ramps up.

    Drives me crazy!

    Disclaimer: I do not own a Volt or any GM products or GM stock!
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #43
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    careful guys as we don't want to delve into political debates.
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  • rich
    rich Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    Without getting political ..I believe we will only see the mass production of electric cars when the same ppl that control big-oil also control the bulk of electrical production .Why would they lose that cash-cow?..slowly these same big oil players are gaining a monopoly on power distribution. Also the production of electric cars would stifle economies . All the steel and aftermarket and oem parts...leaving very few mechanics with work...there is next to no need for large after market industries to replace batteries and windings in a plastic car...JMHO..
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #45
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    maybe so and maybe not. i did read an article that tesla motors did take out a big loan from the government for 10yrs and they paid it back in 1 year. they are succeeding far above what many political leaders had anticipated and some outright called them a 'loser' company like solyndra was. lots of egg to go around to those people that called that shot wrong and i'm glad that company is doing well for we need good solid native companies to succeed as a good alternative to the usual native (detroit) companies we saw here that didn't want to hear of an ev years ago even though gm actually had one going for it that they recalled permanently. that recalled ev is found in a story and is a movie called "who killed the electric car".
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  • rich
    rich Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
    #46
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    Saw that doc...It was very good but not too suprising, its all about "their agenda" and not a lot to do with green possabilities .It seems any advancement at this point in time falls on the backs of companies like You mention........ as the oil economy has no incentive to self destruct...or hand the electric monopolies a chunk of that cash. cash= power .....btw, its hard not to get political with this subject!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #47
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    rich wrote: »
    btw, its hard not to get political with this subject!

    That's why there's four of us here with buckets of ice water and a key to the lock. If it starts to go towards flaming it will be stopped.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #48
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    there is a lot of red tape behind the scenes, take the ZENN LSV (low speed veh.) car, lots of promises but little action to remove impediments, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZENN#Legalization_in_Canada
     
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #49
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    westbranch wrote: »
    there is a lot of red tape behind the scenes, take the ZENN LSV (low speed veh.) car, lots of promises but little action to remove impediments, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZENN#Legalization_in_Canada

    Yes, like the part where it's not legal for street use where it's made. :roll:
    All together now: "O Canada ..." :p
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  • Rick1
    Rick1 Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭
    #50
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    niel wrote: »
    maybe so and maybe not. i did read an article that tesla motors did take out a big loan from the government for 10yrs and they paid it back in 1 year. they are succeeding far above what many political leaders had anticipated and some outright called them a 'loser' company like solyndra was. lots of egg to go around to those people that called that shot wrong and i'm glad that company is doing well for we need good solid native companies to succeed as a good alternative to the usual native (detroit) companies we saw here that didn't want to hear of an ev years ago even though gm actually had one going for it that they recalled permanently. that recalled ev is found in a story and is a movie called "who killed the electric car".

    Tesla did not pay back that government loan with profits but with the money they received from going public and selling about 1 Billion dollars worth of stock.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #51
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions
    Rick1 wrote: »
    Tesla did not pay back that government loan with profits but with the money they received from going public and selling about 1 Billion dollars worth of stock.
    That doesn't mater. The money was paid back and the risk to the taxpayer is removed and placed in private hands.
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  • NeedMoreSolar
    NeedMoreSolar Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭
    #52
    Re: Something completely different: Electric Car Opinions

    Mid Feb 13 we bought a Chevy Volt. We really like this car. We have driven 6,225 EV miles so far.
    Lifetime MPG is 160 MPG we have saved buying 296 gallons of gas. We now charge it with our solar power and are now supporting foreign oil companies. When the kids are in school we charge it two to three times a day. This car is fun to drive it has 273 ft-lbs of torque and is very quiet.

    I know lots of people have driven 20,000 EV miles with no fill up except the dealer gas but we live out of town and drive the car a lot so we still use some gas.
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