Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

westbranch · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Ernest, are you comfortable with Spread sheeets/workbooks?

Also now that you have a target array size you need to suss out some panel specs so as to help decide just which Charge Controller (CC) will handle that output.

Panamretiree · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

westbranch wrote: »

Ernest, are you comfortable with Spread sheeets/workbooks?

Also now that you have a target array size you need to suss out some panel specs so as to help decide just which Charge Controller (CC) will handle that output.

Westbranch - Williams Lake - Lovely spot, little cool in the winter for my taste. Spent some time there though in my younger years on the way to and from Mackenzie. I am comfortable using spreadsheets/workbooks and when I get in a pickle SWMBO (love this acronym) is very good at them.

Curious, using spread sheets for the CC, what am I looking for.

Question - do you agree with the daytime-nighttime load analysis?

BB mentioned that the array can power daytime loads as well. My understanding of this is that you hook the cables from the CC into the battery leads going to the inverter from the batteries and because of this power goes wherever? It's the only way I can think of.

Will start to look at the different CC. I listed the MidNite Classic 150 because it was recommended and appears to be a rock solid performer.

I am also looking to source the equipment from one supplier as I will have to import.

Cheers

Ernest

BB. · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

BB mentioned that the array can power daytime loads as well. My understanding of this is that you hook the cables from the CC into the battery leads going to the inverter from the batteries and because of this power goes wherever? It's the only way I can think of.

Yep... This just like how your car runs... The Battery provides power when the engine is running or not... And the Alternator provides power to both recharge the battery and run the ignition system, lights, fans, radio when the engine is running.

-Bill

westbranch · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Westbranch

Curious, using spread sheets for the CC, what am I looking for.

will send a PM

Panamretiree wrote: »

BB mentioned that the array can power daytime loads as well. My understanding of this is that you hook the cables from the CC into the battery leads going to the inverter from the batteries and because of this power goes wherever? It's the only way I can think of.

Use a BUSS bar for all connections between the battery and CC,Inverter, etc

Panamretiree wrote: »

I listed the MidNite Classic 150 because it was recommended and appears to be a rock solid performer.

Ernest

Try the guys at MIdNite, they might be able to put you on to a dealer if the one at the bottom of this link is too far away http://www.midnitesolar.com/distributors_stocking.php

Panamretiree · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

BB. wrote: »

Yep... This just like how your car runs... The Battery provides power when the engine is running or not... And the Alternator provides power to both recharge the battery and run the ignition system, lights, fans, radio when the engine is running.

-Bill

Got it. Have been redoing the load analysis to take into account daytime-nighttime loads. Fortunate down here such that I can split the loads for daytime - 0600 to 1800 and nighttime 1800 to 0600.

Makes a difference in the power usage, and I think in the size of the array for daytime use. Will publish the new load analyze when I have it broken apart. From just starting it would seem that we need a larger array than first expected, and that T-105s or equivalent may be sufficient. as has been mentioned, batteries are the most expensive part of the system when looked at from an overall perspective.

More to follow.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Use a BUSS bar for all connections between the battery and CC,Inverter, etc

Fan of Buss bars, the more the merrier when it comes to DC systems. Shortens wire runs, and wire sizes, provides better performance from a system.

Try the guys at MIdNite, they might be able to put you on to a dealer if the one at the bottom of this link is too far away http://www.midnitesolar.com/distributors_stocking.php

They list a dealer as Solar Biz. This company has an office here in Panama and I have been in contact with them. The lady at the other end of the phone has been very helpful; however, everything is shipped from the US so I still have to import.

Will be looking at the various CCs as you mentioned.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

BB. wrote: »

Yep... This just like how your car runs... The Battery provides power when the engine is running or not... And the Alternator provides power to both recharge the battery and run the ignition system, lights, fans, radio when the engine is running.

-Bill

Further question/comment - I think I know the answer - We would be sizing the array to take into account nighttime recharge and daytime loads The CC would be directing the power from the array to the buss bar where the batteries are coming into the inverter. There will be more current flowing so some goes to the batteries, rest to the daytime loads. The CC controls the current flow so that the batteries do not get overcharged. With this in mind, there will be times (in a perfect world) when power will be from the array and some from the batteries as the day progresses. This analogy seems to fit what you have said. I comment on this because I never thought about it before.

Cheers

Ernest

Blackcherry04 · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Further question/comment - I think I know the answer - We would be sizing the array to take into account nighttime recharge and daytime loads The CC would be directing the power from the array to the buss bar where the batteries are coming into the inverter. There will be more current flowing so some goes to the batteries, rest to the daytime loads. The CC controls the current flow so that the batteries do not get overcharged. With this in mind, there will be times (in a perfect world) when power will be from the array and some from the batteries as the day progresses. This analogy seems to fit what you have said. I comment on this because I never thought about it before.

Cheers

Ernest

That is exactly what he's saying, Your the power manager. If you use to much during the day you won't have enough to meet your night time loads. It's a balance point and it takes a while to find. You can do it on paper, but mother nature has the biggest say in how it all works out. Then you use your generator as the fall back position. It's all about Design and Mindset then success or failure.

BB. · April 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

And to clarify a bit more... Technically the charge controller(s) set the voltage... Or attempt to set the charging voltage. If you use more current than the charger can supply and/or the batteries are well discharged, the battery bank+loads will be setting the voltage. The first stage is "bulk" where the battery current needs exceed the available output current from the charge controller.

Once the batteries are >~80-90% charged (and your loads are not too large), then the charge controller holds the "absorb" voltage for a number of hours. And the battery bank will limit the charging current as it becomes more full...

Until, at the very end of charging, the battery bank allows around 0.5-1.0-2.0% of battery AH capacity worth of charging current (i.e,. 1% of a 300 AH battery bank would be 3 amps)--At that point, the battery bank is "full". And the controller drops back to "float voltage" which keeps the battery bank full but not "boiling out water" or over charging and causing battery damage. The charge controller (during the day) will supply your loads too (i.e., float voltage but up to maximum current available current from solar array).

As you can see, the charge controller has no information as to how much current is going to the battery bank for charging vs being supplied to the loads--So most charge controllers have some sort of "absorb" timer to fall back to float voltage when it guesses that the battery bank is full. You will have to monitor your battery bank for average state of charge, and adjust the absorb timer for ~2-6 hours depending on how deep you cycle the bank, your solar array size - loads, etc... And your daytime loads limit the amount of charging current available to the battery bank (and may force you to have a larger solar array to support the Loads+Battery Charging energy needs).

Outback may have some sort of system setup where they can monitor the battery bank charging current directly (through a shunt used to measure battery current)--I am not sure of the details.

And Midnite is pretty close to releasing a product which puts a remote shunt on the battery and lets the controller make decisions based on the current flow into/out of the battery bank--Should be a very cool option for less than ~$100 or so. Will be a great help to ensure battery banks are properly charged.

-Bill

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Ralph Day wrote: »

I've got one similar to your 6w one in a lamp. Have you tried them in an open ceiling fixture by any chance? How do they do?

Ralph

Tried the 6W LED in a 4 inch pot light fixture. Original bulbs were 50W INC. The 6W LED gave off the same amount of light and was even a bit brighter. I think they will work out for our solar application. We will be mixing the LEDs depending on where they are located to maximize the load potential of LEDs.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

westbranch wrote: »

Also now that you have a target array size you need to suss out some panel specs so as to help decide just which Charge Controller (CC) will handle that output.

Have been on the MidNite Classic site using their CC sheet. It has provided some interesting reading. I have more work to do but it is promising. It is interesting to see how the panel specs for the Helios 7T2 305W panel and the configuration (series of 4 with parallel of 3 or series of 3 with parallel of 4) affects the recommended CC. I even with more panels than initially looked at and it was an eye opener.

More to follow on this as I get more into the "weeds" so to speak.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Have been in contact with a battery company in Panama City, it is Battery Giant, it has moved an office here. Recommended battery is the US L16HC XC, appears to be similar to the Trojan L16H. Spec sheet attached, any thoughts?

Attachment not found.

Cheers

Ernest

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Have been in contact with a battery company in Panama City, it is Battery Giant, it has moved an office here. Recommended battery is the US L16HC XC, appears to be similar to the Trojan L16H. Spec sheet attached, any thoughts?

That's exact the same "US Battery" batteries that just has been discussied in this thread.

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

NorthGuy wrote: »

That's exact the same "US Battery" batteries that just has been discussied in this thread.

Thanks for pointing me to that thread. Read all the posts, lots of info. Even if these batteries are not the "creme de la creme", maintaining these batteries well could get good longevity. Not in the habit of buying and disposing of good cash.

I have noticed a recurring theme throughout the forums and that is that one must keep good records, come up with a maintenance routine (and keep to it), make adjustments when necessary, and monitor system performance. Reminds me of my days as engineer on our destroyers, just a bit less to contend with. Maybe even squeeze every drop out of the batteries as we used to do with everything in our Navy because upgrades and new equipment were not forthcoming, used to say we kept them going with baling wire and twine, then we got duct tape - did it Red Green style then.

Thanks again.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Think I have found my batteries. Corresponded with the fellow in Panama City, and 8 - L16HC XC delivered (will check on this) brought into the country - $4k. Things are a bit more expensive down here because everything is brought in.

I should confirm if the batteries are dry/wet shipped, will this price include delivery to where I am.

If the batteries are dry shipped, can I leave them decommissioned until I need them or is there a timeline to be followed?

Cheers

Ernest

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

They'll last longer "on the shelf" without acid in them, but the plates have already been 'formed' and so the deterioration begins. But we are talking "years" vs. "months" here; if you can't get the rest of the system together before 'dry' batteries go bad you must have bigger problems to deal with. I wouldn't worry about it.

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Cariboocoot wrote: »

They'll last longer "on the shelf" without acid in them, but the plates have already been 'formed' and so the deterioration begins. But we are talking "years" vs. "months" here; if you can't get the rest of the system together before 'dry' batteries go bad you must have bigger problems to deal with. I wouldn't worry about it.

Expect to have the system up and operating no later than September, don't move into the house until August timeframe. This is all predicated on getting everything finished.

They are starting on the roof this week, and should have it enclosed within two weeks.

Here are the computer renditions that will be quite close. The first one is a frontal shot, and the house is situated on the lot with a north-south orientation along the length of the house.

Attachment not found.

This second one is a look at the house from the north-east corner.

Attachment not found.

This last pic is looking south at the terrace.

Attachment not found.

Cheers

Ernest

BB. · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Maybe 18 months if dry charged and stored around 77F/25C... For every 10C (18F) increase in temperature, there is a x1/2 reduction in life (10C or 35C storage 1/2*1/2=1/4 life or aging 4x faster).

-Bill

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

The contractor started the roof today, it will be very close to the pics I have posted. Will have pics of the construction as they do it.

Cheers

Ernest

Rybren · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Reminds me of my days as engineer on our destroyers,...

Battle of the Atlantic day on Sunday. How will you mark the occasion?

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Rybren wrote: »

Battle of the Atlantic day on Sunday. How will you mark the occasion?

Don't have a White Ensign so the Canadian Flag will have to do. Will have to have the local restaurant, the Paraiso, splice the mainbrace with a rum tot.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Continuing with my LED lighting search and found a 1.8W light by Polar Lighting. 36 LEDs and when first plugged in found it gave off good light, 1/2 hour later about 2/3rds LEDs were dead. So much for its pad test.

Also found a 3W LED that has the same profile as an INC. Haven't bought one yet, but will and expect it to have a 4W or so load.

Picked up the ceiling fan that will be used for a pad test at the different fan speeds (5 in total). Cost just under $60.00 US. Comes in three colors/finish - white/brushed nickel/antique brass/bronze. Supposed to do 104 CFM/watt according to the Westinghouse website. The 24 VDC ceiling fans are 15W with a CFM of ~3000. More to follow.

Cheers

Ernest

Rybren · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Don't have a White Ensign so the Canadian Flag will have to do. Will have to have the local restaurant, the Paraiso, splice the mainbrace with a rum tot.

Cheers

Ernest

I'm a light-blue guy, but I'll hoist one for you just the same

As for LEDs, I use a bunch of cheapie 4W and 5W MR16 12V bulbs that I picked up on fleabay. They make terrific reading lamps and task lights. After about 6 mths of use, there doesn't appear to be any degredation in light output.

westbranch · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Ernest, just heard on this mornings news that the Canadian Navy is 'releasing a NEW Canadian Ensign on Sunday'... using the Canadian flag rather than the old British in the upper corner.

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

westbranch wrote: »

Ernest, just heard on this mornings news that the Canadian Navy is 'releasing a NEW Canadian Ensign on Sunday'... using the Canadian flag rather than the old British in the upper corner.

This is very good, a little change means a lot to those on the "pointy end" so to speak. Even when they unified the service, the Navy did not change how it did business except for when it had admin to do. Then we found out that our Navy ranks were ensconced in legislation, unlike the Army and Air Force. Then we got our uniforms back, no offense to my brothers in light blue, but we took our whites back, I knew a lot of light blue fellows that were not pleased with this, nothing lasts forever. Life was good.

Another good reason to "Splice the Mainbrace" on Sunday.

Cheers to all, time for a cerveza, hot as blazes down here right now.

Ernest

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Roof is going on the house. Will have pictures of the structure for those who follow. Roof line looks great for solar panels.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Went looking for information on the Trojan L16 2VDC batteries and US RE L16 2V XC. They look to be hybrid L16 6VDC batteries because of the three caps on top. Is there a site that I can visit that explains the construction of these batteries.

Did a cost comparison between the US batteries:

L16 HC XC @420 AH and $467.29 = ~$0.185/wh

L16 2V XC @ 1100 AH and $407.95 = ~$0.185/wh

The L16 HC XC costs $4K delivered for 7560 WH of power. The L16 2VDC costs ~$10.5K for 19800 WH of power.

The L16 HC XC @420 AH in a 48 VDC bank configuration gives: 210 AH * 48 *.75 = 7560 WH of power.

Taking into consideration the number of CC and panels to support the L16 2VDC batteries, I think the L16 HC XC are my best bet, because the costs are quite similar for WH.

For maintenance with the L16 HC XC batteries have 24 holes to check, but it looks like I would have 72 holes with the L16 2 VDC batteries (could be wrong).

Having gone through this exercise, and with using 12 - 305W panels (3 panels in series and 4 parallel - according to the MidNite calculator the 150 will perform just fine), with one CC, I think the L16 HC XC batteries will do the trick. With a good maintenance program in place and there are lots of great examples stated in various forums, the L16 HC XC batteries should provide power for a long time.

Cheers

Ernest

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

Panamretiree wrote: »

Went looking for information on the Trojan L16 2VDC batteries

These are not single 2V cells. Just as regular L16 6V batteries, they consist of three 2V cells, which are connected in parallel. 6V batteries are three 2V cells connected in series. So, they just don't make any sense. You'll be better off with 3 strings of 6V batteries than with 1 string of these pseudo-2V batteries in every respect.

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

NorthGuy wrote: »

These are not single 2V cells. Just as regular L16 6V batteries, they consist of three 2V cells, which are connected in parallel. 6V batteries are three 2V cells connected in series. So, they just don't make any sense. You'll be better off with 3 strings of 6V batteries than with 1 string of these pseudo-2V batteries in every respect.

NG - Thanks for the input. Single 2V celled batteries make sense to me, but not the hybrids. One string of the L16 HC XC 420 AH batteries should do fine. If I need more power later, that's another issue.

Now to look at charging rates for the 48 VDC - 420 AH battery bank with 12 - 305W helios 7T2 panels.

Will be going into Panama City next Wednesday, and hope to drop into the battery dealer and maybe even a solar company. Looking forward to going to Panama City which doesn't happen that often - it's a zoo driving there.

Cheers

Ernest

Panamretiree · May 2013

Re: Bulding new Off Grid Home in Panama

The house has been parged on the inside and I now have a good perspective of the size of the "power centre" that I will have to work with. Having looked at a lot of the installations on this web site, I think I have enough space, but the monitoring and working with the equipment may not be the best. So I am thinking, as was mentioned by Surfpath, that I will move the system into the Deposito (work shop) and set it up there. Minimizes a lot of cable runs and should be better for monitoring and maintenance. Needed a small utility closet for brooms, etc anyway (didn't have an area for these items).

The deposito is gong to be parged next week but it is easy to knock in a hole and make it look good again.

This means I will have to run AC out of the deposito into the house where the power panels are. The distance will be ~35 ft - (X3). I estimate (not good with this wiring thing) that a #6 or #4 for the AC run should be sufficient (cheaper than a 2/0 or 4/0 cable at ~15 ft).

Another consideration will be running the panel wires into the deposito from on top of the house. This should not be too extreme either. I estimate additional wire of ~20 feet (X2) for this run into the deposito.

Will be looking at a wireless network for monitoring in the house.

We also discussed having a small generator for times when I have to do battery maintenance. This is because there will be no main power into the deposito, but will be able to go on the grid for times when I have to take the batteries off line, unless of course I put in a parallel string of batteries. I notice that a few folks on the forums use the Honda 3000i for a backup genet.

I am very grateful that my better half is just as committed to making this work.

We are plumbing in a water tank, I think 100 to 200 gallon, put in a water pump and pressure tank, and use it to supply the house, much like we had on our boat. There are times with the power out, or the development water pump goes down that there is no water. Will be looking at the pump requirements for this.

Building new Off Grid Home in Panama

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