Buying new equipment

bfitzgerald · April 2013

I have pretty much decided to buy a xantrex 4024 with midnite solar e-panel. I'd like 300w panels (6). Batteries, my supplier is pushing US Battery L16 LC XC's (16) but they sound pretty cheap. Have the xantrex mppt charge controller (which explains 4024 selection and I need .240 v for pumping.
Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

Brian

niel · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

seems to me starting out with cheap fla batteries is quite fine to do as if you make any mistakes then it doesn't hurt quite as badly. no consolation though as mistakes are still very costly.

anyway, i roughly ran the numbers and you have too much battery for the amount of pv you have and you are near maxed on the cc so expansions will need another cc. as i figure it you are roughly about 3.95% before losses and we usually recommend at least 5% and up to 13% with 10% almost ideal actualy to the batteries so that's after losses.

bfitzgerald · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

niel wrote: »

seems to me starting out with cheap fla batteries is quite fine to do as if you make any mistakes then it doesn't hurt quite as badly. no consolation though as mistakes are still very costly.

If I'm lucky enough not to ruin the batteries do you think that US Battery brand is OK for the cost? This is a seasonal home and is unsupervised for 6 months (winter). Lots can go wrong in that time.

I did use the Xantrex sizing config tool for the mppt 60-150 controller (using 300 watt Canadian Solar panels) and did note that the max was near. I am thinking about the X 4548 inverter which would allow me to double the array without adding additional c.c. capacity....if I read the configuration tool right.

Cariboocoot · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

US Battery is East Penn/Deka. Perfectly good brand.

And yes if you up the system Voltage to 48 your controller can handle 2X the panels as the maximum current output is the same at each Voltage level, which translates into "more Volts = more Watts".

niel · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

upping to 48v as coot recommends does mean a different inverter. that is, one made for a 48v battery bank and is probably a good thing for you to do. gives you a bit of expansion room on the pvs and lowers v drop losses somewhat.

as with anything unattended there is always a bit of a risk, but if you tweak and supervise it during the summer months then you increase the chances of catching anything that may go wrong.

vtmaps · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

bfitzgerald wrote: »

my supplier is pushing US Battery L16 LC XC's (16)

With a 24 volt system those 16 batteries will be in four parallel strings. Not a good idea. At 48 volts those same batteries could be in two strings. Much better.

Cariboocoot wrote:

US Battery is East Penn/Deka. Perfectly good brand

Cariboocoot, Interstate L16 batteries are made by US Battery, and if I recall correctly, you don't think too highly of them.
Note: not all Interstate batteries are made by US Battery, but the L16s are.

--vtMaps

BB. · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

Cheap batteries have their charm...

If they last 3-5 years vs 5-8 years for "mid range" batteries--How does the cost of ownership work out.

Also, if this is your first set of batteries--A set of "training" batteries may be a good start. Most of us have "murdered" our first sets of batteries... Over/under charging, forgetting to check electrolyte levels, "deficit charging", an "oops" were the inverter was left on or a guest used a hair drier+TV+lights all weekend long, etc....

Plus, if this is the first time off grid for the cabin, you really do not know how much power you will really need. Having a "cheap set" of batteries that only last a few years will give you a chance to wring out the system and see if you need a larger or smaller bank.

-Bill

NorthGuy · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

"Cheap" batteries are likely to require shorter absorption times and/or lower charging voltages compare to big and expensive ones and therfore will be much more efficient overall. Low initial cost and savings because of better efficiency may overweight the benefits of longer cycle life of big batteries.

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

vtmaps wrote: »

not all Interstate batteries are made by US Battery, but the L16s are.

We just bought eight Interstate UL16HC's for our boat and it says US Battery in fine print on the tags on them. Our old Interstate SRM-4D's were 7 years old this coming July and those say Johnson Controls in fine print on the tags.

$312 each for the UL16HC's from our local Interstate battery dealer, and they were special order - took two weeks to get them. $20 core charge per battery. I paid the core charge because I got $36 each for the 4D's, scrap price, at the local salvage yard.
--
Chris

Cariboocoot · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

ChrisOlson wrote: »

We just bought eight Interstate UL16HC's for our boat and it says US Battery in fine print on the tags on them. Our old Interstate SRM-4D's were 7 years old this coming July and those say Johnson Controls in fine print on the tags.

$312 each for the UL16HC's from our local Interstate battery dealer, and they were special order - took two weeks to get them. $20 core charge per battery. I paid the core charge because I got $36 each for the 4D's, scrap price, at the local salvage yard.
--
Chris

Further to this, any retailer may have their units manufactured by different companies depending on who has the contract at the time. To that end, they are usually made to the retailer's specs which means the same size/type unit made by the same company may not be the same under both retail brands.

Think Kenmore appliances over the past forty years. It isn't always just badge engineering.

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Further to this, any retailer may have their units manufactured by different companies depending on who has the contract at the time. To that end, they are usually made to the retailer's specs which means the same size/type unit made by the same company may not be the same under both retail brands.

That is an absolute truth. I bought a pair of Farm & Fleet Group 29 marine deep cycles and it says Johnson Controls on them. I compared to an Interstate SRM-29, also made by Johnson controls (this was after the Farm & Fleet ones went dead before two years was up). On the outside the case of both is identical. But looking in the caps I can see that they are NOT the same battery inside. The separators are not even the same. The Interstate battery has some sort of plastic looking separators and the Farm & Fleet ones had what appeared to be cardboard, and the cardboard had all come apart and the electrolyte was dirty brown.

I took them batteries to the Farm and Fleet store and showed them what was wrong with them. The guy in the Service Center didn't have a single clue except how to hook up this little electronic "tester" to the battery that spent five minutes "testing" it, then spits out a paper receipt that said on it that the batteries were still good, and therefore they weren't covering them under warranty. I asked the idiot if they had a hydrometer or a load tester and I'd show them exactly what was wrong with those batteries. The kid didn't even know what a hydrometer is and he told me the little "tester" he had hooked up is way more accurate anyway.
--
Chris

bfitzgerald · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

This is my first "serious" set of batteries - I've had smaller ones and certainly learned how to ruin those, but only out a few hundred bucks at a time. I've been messing around with solar off-grid stuff for 15 years, but with much less capacity and growing needs. My wife says it's time to get a "real" fridge - she is as tired as I am of propane units so that up's the power requirements a notch or two. I'll be glad to buy and haul less propane (by boat). And more loads appear all the time - where did that LED flat screen TV come from. And things plugged in everywhere to charge....had to get a real system.

But back to cheap batteries - The US Battery L16HC XC is priced at $285 including core charge. Seems...cheap compared to many other options. I also see US Battery has a "Renewable" model, the REL16 XC. Other than the regular L16 is rated at 440 ah vs the REL16 is rated at 401 ah. Maybe someone knows what the difference is?

Thanks again for the replies and conversations - this site is a great resource!

Brian

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

The L16HC is the identical battery that our Interstate UL16HC's are. The REL16 is a low specific gravity battery, so it has lower capacity and requires lower absorb voltage.
--
Chris

NorthGuy · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

bfitzgerald wrote: »

But back to cheap batteries - The US Battery L16HC XC is priced at $285 including core charge. Seems...cheap compared to many other options. I also see US Battery has a "Renewable" model, the REL16 XC. Other than the regular L16 is rated at 440 ah vs the REL16 is rated at 401 ah. Maybe someone knows what the difference is?

RE versions probably have thicker plates fo longer life, hence the reduced capacity. But this also may make them more difficult to charge.

$285 is rather expensive for L16. If you're not far from the border, there could be much cheaper L16 over there.

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

Both the L16HC and REL16XC weigh 118 lbs. The L16HC already has heavier plates and that's why it weighs 118 lbs vs 110 for the regular L16, and has 420ah vs 380. The only difference between the L16HC floor scrubber battery and the "RE" version is just like in the Trojan L16RE-B's - they have lower specific gravity which reduces their amp-hour capacity from 420 to 401.

Recommended absorb for the "RE" version is 2.45 VPC. For the floor scrubber battery it's 2.58 VPC.

Just bought eight of the things so all the specs are still fresh in my mind on them from deciding which ones to buy for our boat. I went with the Interstate brand because I could get free shipping on them to my local dealer on their regular route truck that comes around every two weeks.
--
Chris

NorthGuy · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

ChrisOlson wrote: »

The only difference between the L16HC floor scrubber battery and the "RE" version is just like in the Trojan L16RE-B's - they have lower specific gravity which reduces their amp-hour capacity from 420 to 401.

Recommended absorb for the "RE" version is 2.45 VPC. For the floor scrubber battery it's 2.58 VPC.

Both Trojans HC and RE have the same SG of 1.280 and "recommended" absorption voltage of 2.35-2.45VPC. Weight is about the same too. But RE have much less capacity - 370AH compared to 435AH in HC. My guess is that this is because they have fewer thicker plates than HCs.

It certainly might be different for US battery. So, it's a good idea to look at the specs.

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

Chances are the stuff you pull off the internet ain't accurate. Better talk to your Trojan rep first. I just did a couple weeks ago before I decided we weren't getting Trojans for the boat.

With over 80 years of experience, Trojan Battery - the most trusted name in deep cycle technology - has made the industry's best-performing batteries even better. Trojan's Renewable Energy (RE) Series (L16RE-2V, L16RE-A, L16RE-B and the new T105-RE) is a line of advanced deep cycle batteries optimized for renewable energy applications such as solar/photovoltaic, small wind, and micro-hydro.

Trojan's RE Series is available in 2-volt and 6-volt sizes and offers brand new features and benefits unmatched in the industry:

-DuraGrid™ technology provides a 10-year design life (8 years for T105-RE) and provides excellent charge efficiency
-Maxguard® XL Advanced Design Separator is 30% thicker and stronger, resists stratification, extends life and lowers overall maintenance costs
-Alpha Plus® paste formulation promotes longer life and optimum performance
-Polyon™container - the ultra-rugged case design stands up to the harshest of environments
-High capacity 2V battery - the L16RE-2V battery minimizes battery connections and lowers installation cost
-Lower specific gravity improves charge performance and extends life
-Best-in-class limited warranty - 7 years for L16RE-2V, - A, and -B; 5 years for T105-RE

Industrial battery specs are all based on constant current industrial chargers that use a bulk/absorb/acceptance cycle, then a finishing cycle at EQ voltage, then shut off and don't float. Totally different from RE chargers.
--
Chris

vtmaps · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

NorthGuy wrote: »

Both Trojans HC and RE have the same SG of 1.280 and "recommended" absorption voltage of 2.35-2.45VPC. Weight is about the same too. But RE have much less capacity - 370AH compared to 435AH in HC. My guess is that this is because they have fewer thicker plates than HCs.

You are correct. The SG is the same and the RE batteries have fewer, thicker plates. NOTE: this wasn't always the case... Until about a year ago Trojan was using a lower SG in their RE line. Somewhere on their web site they have a note about it. It has been discussed on this forum somewhere.

Reference:
A post by Trojan Representative John Deboever: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/2012/037685.html

--vtMaps

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

If you ask me, Trojan is selling snake oil when you start getting different stories from different reps. From their whitepaper on the RE-series

The RE Series features the following attributes and components:
•DuraGrid™ technology which provides a 10 year design life and excellent charge efficiency
•Maxguard® XL Advanced Design Separator which is 30% thicker and stronger, resists stratification, extends life and lowers overall maintenance costs
•Alpha Plus® Pasteformulation which promotes longer life and optimum performance
•Polyon™ container an ultra rugged case design which stands up to the harshest environments
•Lower specific gravity which improves charge performance and extends life

http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/RE_RESeriesTCOWhitepaperLR.pdf

--
Chris

NorthGuy · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

ChrisOlson wrote: »

If you ask me, Trojan is selling snake oil when you start getting different stories from different reps.

Trojan have different divisions - marketing, sales, manufacturing, support. It is my understanding they have mo idea what other divisions are doing. So, the reps are likely to have out of date information.

When I was buying Trojans, I've read all these marketing materials, plus more, which influenced my decision to buy Trojans. In fact, they simply insert the same catch phrases for different kinds of batteries without any regard on whether what they say applies to the specific model or not. If you read description of different kinds of batteries, you will find all the same. Most of this happened to be a marketing hype.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

DuraGrid™ technology which provides a 10 year design life and excellent charge efficiency.

Wrong. I need very high absorption voltage. Charge efficiency 48/64 = 75%, extremely low.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Maxguard® XL Advanced Design Separator which is 30% thicker and stronger, resists stratification, extends life and lowers overall maintenance costs.

Wrong. Stratification happens very quickly and very hard to remove.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Lower specific gravity which improves charge performance and extends life.

It doesn't. I have batteries with specified SG of 1.26 and their charge performance is horrible. That's probably why they switched to 1.280 for their new RE series.

I don't know about long life yet. We shall see.

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

NorthGuy - that's what I mean. I looked at getting some L16RE-B's for the boat for the house power bank. But the thing is, to get any warranty coverage on them who knows how many hoops you have to jump thru? When the Trojan started talking about not knowing if Trojan would warranty them in a marine application I had heard enough already.

That's why I bought the Interstates made by US Battery. The Interstate dealer is a rural starter and alternator shop in an old barn just a couple miles from us. He has a hydrometer and a Sun Load Tester. He knows how to test a battery and there is no hassles if one goes bad when it's under warranty. He'll just check the SG to make sure it's been charged and the cells are even, and load test it. If it don't hold up on the load test he'll replace it. No calling up Tech Support and jumping thru hoops. He's an independent dealer that knows about batteries and Interstate is really good with their independent dealers.

So I came to the conclusion that buying these so-called "non-premium" brands is just as good as spending the extra buck on Trojan, Rolls et al, when you got a local walk-in brick and mortar dealer like that that will support what he sells - AND actually knows what he's doing. When I bought those Farm & Fleet batteries that time, this is where I took them to after the Farm & Fleet store told me they were still good. He checked the SG on them and said right away when he saw the brown electrolyte that they don't look good. Put 'em on the load tester and they wouldn't hold 20 amps for 5 minutes without dropping to 11.5 volts. They were junk and that's when we investigated the differences between what looked like identical batteries made by the same company (Johnson Controls), but with different brand stickers on them.

I go to the Interstate guy and he'll tell me straight up, "Oh yeah, I've sold them to blah blah blah for their floor sweepers and they've been really good." Or if they've had problem he'll tell me "No - I wouldn't buy those because I've had a lot of problems with them." No snake oil. No jumping thru hoops if there's a problem.
--
Chris

NorthGuy · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

ChrisOlson wrote: »

I go to the Interstate guy and he'll tell me straight up, "Oh yeah, I've sold them to blah blah blah for their floor sweepers and they've been really good." Or if they've had problem he'll tell me "No - I wouldn't buy those because I've had a lot of problems with them." No snake oil. No jumping thru hoops if there's a problem.

When I was buying my batteries, the dealer told me he had never seen batteries like that. He also told me that Trojans in general were good because nobody ever returned them (as I guess now because of difficult warranty condtions). Next time, rather than going for overpriced and overhyped brands, I'll stick with something mass-produced with good performance record.

Interstate/US Battery looks like a good choice to me.

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

NorthGuy wrote: »

He also told me that Trojans in general were good because nobody ever returned them

From Trojan's warranty on the Premium line batteries:
A battery will not be considered failed, defective or unserviceable unless it fails to deliver 50% or more of its rated capacity (temperature corrected to 80°F) during the warranty period.

So basically, the battery can be 3 years old, dead to the world with only 50% of it's capacity left, and she's still good. Nobody is going to return a perfectly good battery with 50% of its capacity left yet.

If I had an easy way to move a 4,000 lb forklift battery in the utility room, that's what I'd have. The only saving grace with these little batteries like L-16's is that a normal human can move one.
--
Chris

Dave Angelini · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

Anything made by humans can fail before its time. Forklifts are no exception and have stung me more than once. Over the decades, the big name battery failures start repeating. As long as you remember that over the decades, a good dealer makes their income selling batteries, you will be fine!

It is ok to have good warranty, I would rather have equipment that did not need a warranty. Maybe one of those 300,000 rpm batteries... FRIDAY !

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Anything made by humans can fail before its time. Forklifts are no exception and have stung me more than once.

That's true. However, I know several people that live off-grid and have ran forklift batteries for 15 years with no problems. There's an off-grid couple about 25 miles north of us that has had a 1,380ah 24V forklift battery for 21 years, and it's still going strong. I helped them move that battery into their utility room back in 1992 when they bought their off-grid farm. All we had to move it with was an International 656 Row Crop with a front end loader on it that wouldn't quite pick the battery up to get it in the battery room. What a beast.
--
Chris

BB. · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

Just because I want to see what an International 656 Row Crop is (our family had a 1962 International Scout for many years--All of us kids learned how to drive in that guy--On the beach/mud in 4WD near Mavericks before it became Mavericks):

Attachment not found.

-Bill

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

That's the one. The Row Crop model had 34" rubber on the rear and the setback front axle. The International Farmall 656 had 38" rubber on the rear and a straight front axle. Otherwise they are identical. They either came with a C291 gas engine or a D282 diesel, and a 5 speed transmission with a TA so it had 10 forward gears and 2 in reverse.

It would pick the battery up enough with the loader to get enough weight off so it could be skidded along on the ground. Not quite enough hydraulic power to get it off the ground. We got it up to the door of the battery room where there was a cement pad outside the door, then jacked the rear of the tractor up and tightened up the chain on the loader, then let the rear of the tractor down. That got the battery off the ground about 6" and we quick slid four pieces of 3" pipe under it before the cylinders settled on the loader and it came back down. We pushed the battery into the battery room, rolling it on those pieces of pipe, and kept picking up the last pipe that came out from under it and putting it back down ahead. The battery is still sitting on three of those pieces of pipe today.
--
Chris

vtmaps · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

ChrisOlson wrote: »

We just bought eight Interstate UL16HC's for our boat

Hi Chris, I purchased interstate L16s for much the same reason you did. I do not have the High Capacity model. How are you charging them (what charge profile?) As you know, the manufacturer recommendations are not for a typical RE bulk-absorb-float profile.

vtmaps wrote: »

Reference:
A post by Trojan Representative John Deboever: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/2012/037685.html

ChrisOlson wrote: »

If you ask me, Trojan is selling snake oil when you start getting different stories from different reps.

Sorry to upset you. I do not own Trojans, but I like to read about batteries and I just accepted the Trojan Rep's posting at face value.

--vtMaps

ChrisOlson · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

vtmaps wrote: »

Hi Chris, I purchased interstate L16s for much the same reason you did. I do not have the High Capacity model. How are you charging them (what charge profile?) As you know, the manufacturer recommendations are not for a typical RE bulk-absorb-float profile.

Our shore power charger is a PowerTech IUIa charger. It runs off either 240V shore power or our onboard Yanmar diesel generator. Interstate told me to set the bulk/acceptance rate at 90 amps @ 28.8, absorb at 31.0 for 3 hours, and finish at 31.2.

Really nice day here today and I'm going to get them installed this afternoon and commission them. The boat is sitting in winter storage and not in the water yet for this year. From the ground to the deck is about 10 feet but the marina has a forklift that I can use today to lift the pallet up to the deck. I got the 4D's out of the engine room and carried them, one at a time, down a ladder a couple weeks ago. I'm not young enough anymore to try carrying the new ones back up the ladder.

Attachment not found.
--
Chris

NorthGuy · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

vtmaps wrote: »

A post by Trojan Representative John Deboever: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/2012/037685.html

I'll take a liberty to quote from the post that you're referred:

The grid is thicker for the Premium "RE" L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results into a greater corrosion resistance

There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the Premium "RE" L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical reaction

With the same lead weight, you can either make plates thicker, which will decrease the surface of the plates. Or you can increase the surface of the plates, which will make them thinner.

They seem to claim that they did both

vtmaps · April 2013

Re: Buying new equipment

NorthGuy wrote: »

I'll take a liberty to quote from the post that you're referred:

There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the Premium "RE" L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical reaction

With the same lead weight, you can either make plates thicker, which will decrease the surface of the plates. Or you can increase the surface of the plates, which will make them thinner.

They seem to claim that they did both

A battery's capacity requires both electrolyte and lead plate. Some batteries run out of capacity because they are limited by the amount of lead they contain, others are limited by the amount of electrolyte they contain. In that sense if you reduce the amount of lead, you will have relatively more electrolyte. Maybe.

--vtMaps

Buying new equipment

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