Integrated versus non-integrated equipment

newl
newl Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
With all of the recent discussions surrounding integrated chargers/inverters I began thinking and wondering if there is one configuration is more efficient than another.

My current configuration is two charge controllers (one PWM and a Tristar45 MPPT) with two separate inverters, one 600/1200W and a 300/450W. I run the fridge off of the larger and all electronics off of the smaller (gets turned off when I'm not here to save from idle power usage). Positives with the separation of concerns is that if I have one piece of equipment fail, I can replace it with little hassle (I have a spare PWM controller that can replace either of the two in a pinch). Negatives are more wiring, fusing, breakers and installation isn't anywhere near as neat.

What I see as positives for an integrated charger/inverter are things such as generator support, ease of (and lesser) cabling and installation. Negatives, if the unit packs it in, have to rely on generator and separate charger while it is being repaired.

The questions that come to mind are is either configuration more efficient than the other and are there any pros/cons that I haven't considered? I suspect that I could have done things differently with mine and purchased charger/inverter instead of what I have at probably a higher price than the separate components. Merely wanted to hear others' thoughts and experiences.
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  • tallgirl
    tallgirl Solar Expert Posts: 413 ✭✭
    #2
    Re: Integrated versus non-integrated equipment
    newl wrote: »
    With all of the recent discussions surrounding integrated chargers/inverters I began thinking and wondering if there is one configuration is more efficient than another.

    My current configuration is two charge controllers (one PWM and a Tristar45 MPPT) with two separate inverters, one 600/1200W and a 300/450W. I run the fridge off of the larger and all electronics off of the smaller (gets turned off when I'm not here to save from idle power usage). Positives with the separation of concerns is that if I have one piece of equipment fail, I can replace it with little hassle (I have a spare PWM controller that can replace either of the two in a pinch). Negatives are more wiring, fusing, breakers and installation isn't anywhere near as neat.

    What I see as positives for an integrated charger/inverter are things such as generator support, ease of (and lesser) cabling and installation. Negatives, if the unit packs it in, have to rely on generator and separate charger while it is being repaired.

    The questions that come to mind are is either configuration more efficient than the other and are there any pros/cons that I haven't considered? I suspect that I could have done things differently with mine and purchased charger/inverter instead of what I have at probably a higher price than the separate components. Merely wanted to hear others' thoughts and experiences.

    "Integrated" is likely more efficient than "non-integrated" at some point, but since you are turning things off manually your configuration may well be more efficient. It's also a relatively small configuration

    It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on the pros and cons, though it also sounds like you may need to work on gradually improving the system in terms of tidiness and the efficiency of some of the other parts. PWM charge controllers really are 30% or more less efficient than an MPPT charge controller because they lose significant amounts of energy harvest at lower battery voltages.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Integrated versus non-integrated equipment

    Welcome to the forum.
    My personal opinion (others I'm sure have differing ideas) is not to put all ones eggs in one combined device unless there's very good reason to do so. Perhaps that's because of my past life in electronics, where I've seen several one-device-does-it-all offerings where when one part failed and was for whatever reason unrepairable, the whole thing ended up in the garbage, even though some of it's parts still worked. And neither do I personally like the idea of one function of a device failing and killing off all the other functions of a one-device-does-it-all box.
    That said, combined inverter-chargers do seem to be quite common, and as long as they're working OK, all is fine. Also they could be cheaper than two separate units because of their ability to share certain important components.
    Is there a "right" answer? Probably not, it would depend on your needs and desires.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Integrated versus non-integrated equipment

    You, or someone else reading this, might be getting confused about terminology. Excluding wind and hydro ...

    There are charge controllers that regulate PV charging of batteries, inverters that convert battery power to AC, inverter-chargers which function both as inverter and an AC sourced charger, and finally all-in-one units that combine the PV charge controller with an inverter-charger.

    And there are different levels of integration as well. You could have one brand of charge controller, a different brand of inverter (no communication between the two), and a stand-alone AC charge source. Or you can have a charge controller and inverter-charger. Or you can have a charge controller and inverter-charger which communicate with one another. Or you can have one of the aforementioned all-in-one units.

    As for which works best it will depend on the particular needs of the user. For instance when dealing with multiple charge controllers having the ability for them to share information regarding battery Voltage, set points, charge stage, and temperature helps keep everything working at its most efficient. But it is not actually necessary per se. Nor is it essential that the inverter and charge controller communicate. In general, the larger the system is (multiples of components) the more advantageous having them share data is.

    The all-in-one units are not so common in North America. From what I've seen of them (some of the forum members outside the U.S. have them) they are not that well-designed and tend to come up short in one function or another. Perhaps if one of the bigger companies were to build one they wouldn't scrimp on performance, or perhaps not. But this does not mean that such a unit would not be suitable for some applications.

    Budget, alas, plays a large part in what components are used in a system. Whereas it is not always true, the old caveat "you get what you pay for" does hold most of the time. Certainly you don't need top-of-the-line stuff for an occasional use cabin or RV, but by the same token cutting corners to save a dollar or two on a full-scale system is certain to turn out to be a false economy.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Integrated versus non-integrated equipment

    Quite a few of the folks on the forum are very talented and like most hobbies, they like electronics or the do-it yourself. My experience with 53 off-grid homes that I have played a part in is, the system must be integrated. An interface bus must send/receive the data in one convenient part of the home. For that reason I only specify the Schneider XW or Outback systems. Great equipment is out there for those who do not mind being non-integrated. My latest project was for a client who wanted other people in his family to understand what was going on. He no longer wanted to be the only one, for various reasons. While you may start small, it will help you as you age to integrate a power system. Good Luck!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Integrated versus non-integrated equipment

    you may find some pro/con comments in this post of interest http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?18566-Your-system-after-you-re-gone&highlight=system
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • unicornio
    unicornio Solar Expert Posts: 217 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: Integrated versus non-integrated equipment

    in my opinion, an integrated system (inverter+charger+AC switch) is a complete solution, but this is essential when you are using a genset ... if you're not using a generator does not need a charger, so you not need more that an inverter (or 2 as is the case)as Julie says (hi, Julie, you're right about the efficiency of an integrated system) ...you are very lucky not to need a genset! ...but how you can charge your batt when no have sun?...

    and, in terms of reliability, i thing that it is best to use a redundant and/or field repairable system like outback ...
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  • newl
    newl Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Integrated versus non-integrated equipment
    PWM charge controllers really are 30%

    Yep, know about this. If so much of my existing gear wasn't 12V, I'd reconfigure things for 24V and let the Tristar flex itself a bit more and bugger off the PWM controller. At the moment, I'm limited to two panels per controller due to my bank being 12V. I've learned lessons from my choices. :)

    In the next two years, I'll build a new system and put this 12V system to other tasks that I have in mind.
    westbranch wrote: »
    you may find some pro/con comments in this post of interest http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?18566-Your-system-after-you-re-gone&highlight=system

    I did like following that thread from start to current.
    unicornio wrote: »
    ...you are very lucky not to need a genset! ...but how you can charge your batt when no have sun?...

    I do have one, an EU20i. I knew that I'd need it when I spec'd out the system. Besides, it's good to have around the property for running tools that have grunt where the cordless ones lack. I've loved following the generator threads over the past 8 months or so as they're quite in depth and informative.
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