Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
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Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringWhere did you get 240V generator that small. I'm trying to find a backup generator, but all 240V units are 4kW+?
It's a little Champion 46538 with our Trace T240 autotransformer on it that we used to use for leg balancing on our stacked SW Plus inverters.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
The reason I was bringing the AGS up is because with the new SW3012 you cannot engage " Generator Support " without a AGS attached to the Xanbus. All it does is give you a fault. So I am going to have to get one and trick it into accepting grid as a Generator. I am guessing that it'll have to have a 12v source on the run wire.ChrisOlson wrote: »In theory that could be done if you tell the XW-AGS that the grid is a two-wire generator (can't remember what "type" that would be in the menu selections). And have the signal from the AGS operate a 12V pilot relay that in turn operates a heavy contactor to turn the grid on and off to AC2.
However, in that situation you're dealing with a simulated off-grid situation with very small battery bank on a very big inverter, and it's going to work the living snot out of the bank. That little battery bank, no way, can handle a 6 kW load on the inverter. And the XW requires the battery bank to carry a heavy load, or overload, for five minutes before it will call for help from the generator. Five minutes at 6-8 kW load, with no incoming solar, will pull a little 350 ah battery bank down to the LBCO almost instantly just due to voltage sag from not having enough battery behind it, and you'll probably lose power before the five minutes is up.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringBlackcherry04 wrote: »The reason I was bringing the AGS up is because with the new SW3012 you cannot engage " Generator Support " without a AGS attached to the Xanbus. All it does is give you a fault. So I am going to have to get one and trick it into accepting grid as a Generator. I am guessing that it'll have to have a 12v source on the run wire.
You could try it without the Switched B+ signal and see if it works. It says in the AGS manual that it's not required with a particular firmware version (can't remember what that is). With the Honda I used a separate relay to turn on the Switched B+ run signal to the XW-AGS. The coil in the relay closes the points at 7 VDC and I got that power from the engine's battery charging alternator. It's only at about 2 volts during cranking but it reaches 7 VDC within a 1/10 of a second after it fires, closes the relay, the relay turns on genset battery power to the XW-AGS B+ and it disengages the starter in the first half second after the engine fires.
Being you're not actually starting an engine, who cares if the XW-AGS holds the start signal on after AC power is sensed at the AC2 input? You're not going to wreck anything like you would with a real generator. I think, but don't know it for certain, that the B+ signal is not required for the XW to qualify the AC source and connect it. It's only required so it knows that the engine of a generator is running so it can disengage the starter.
In the event it does need that B+ signal, the only bad thing that could happen is that it would think the generator is not running due to lack of a B+ signal. So then it would shut the fake "generator" down (as a safety precaution) and try to restart it until the number of Retry times expires. I think I'd be inclined to try it without it first.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
Yeah, that's what it looks like, wire #12 B+ and #13 B-. I dropped my tech guy a e-mail. Type # 11 is for a Kohler with a momentary signal and the run signal that should work. There is just a huge amount of settings, I was thinking that you could control the grid with them, like quiet time during the day, just a thought. I notice you use a lot of things to enhance your system operation by thinking out of the box.ChrisOlson wrote: »You could try it without the Switched B+ signal and see if it works. It says in the AGS manual that it's not required with a particular firmware version (can't remember what that is). With the Honda I used a separate relay to turn on the Switched B+ run signal to the XW-AGS. The coil in the relay closes the points at 7 VDC and I got that power from the engine's battery charging alternator. It's only at about 2 volts during cranking but it reaches 7 VDC within a 1/10 of a second after it fires, closes the relay, the relay turns on genset battery power to the XW-AGS B+ and it disengages the starter in the first half second after the engine fires.
Being you're not actually starting an engine, who cares if the XW-AGS holds the start signal on after AC power is sensed at the AC2 input? You're not going to wreck anything like you would with a real generator. I think, but don't know it for certain, that the B+ signal is not required for the XW to qualify the AC source and connect it. It's only required so it knows that the engine of a generator is running so it can disengage the starter.
In the event it does need that B+ signal, the only bad thing that could happen is that it would think the generator is not running due to lack of a B+ signal. So then it would shut the fake "generator" down (as a safety precaution) and try to restart it until the number of Retry times expires. I think I'd be inclined to try it without it first.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringBlackcherry04 wrote: »Yeah, that's what it looks like, wire #12 B+ and #13 B-. I dropped my tech guy a e-mail. Type # 11 is for a Kohler with a momentary signal and the run signal that should work. There is just a huge amount of settings, I was thinking that you could control the grid with them, like quiet time during the day, just a thought. I notice you use a lot of things to enhance your system operation by thinking out of the box.
You do not really need AGS to simply switch a relay. AUX output from XW programmed to run at low battery voltage will do exactly the same. -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
That is true, but here is the problem. It doesn't say if it has to function, to me functioning would mean it would to have at least Run Signal, but maybe not. Some how it's all tied together. Without it the setting will disable itself and fault.You do not really need AGS to simply switch a relay. AUX output from XW programmed to run at low battery voltage will do exactly the same.
Generator Assist
The Freedom SW Series of inverter/chargers can operate in tandem with a
generator to temporarily assist power loads with large start-up demands
such as air conditioners, water pumps etc. A Xanbus AGS must be installed
in the system in order for this feature work. -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringBlackcherry04 wrote: »That is true, but here is the problem. It doesn't say if it has to function, to me functioning would mean it would to have at least Run Signal, but maybe not. Some how it's all tied together. Without it the setting will disable itself and fault.
In the XW, Gen Support works as long as it has power on the AC2 input - it doesn't have to be activated by the XW-AGS. I can manually start the generator with its switch and I just get a warning message on the SCP that says the gen was started by it's switch and have to use its switch to stop it. Everything works normally otherwise, including battery charging and Gen Support.
What you would not be able to program using the AUX output to start a generator based on low voltage is all the trigger options that are unique to the AGS. And those trigger options include several timers for low DC V start, Start Load, Stop Load, etc.. And there are also trigger options to stop the generator based on voltage, or whether you want to stop it at absorb or float, and so on.
I think for the $150 bucks that the AGS costs, it's well worth it just for the configurability of it.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
I think your right, as I think about it, because you can set the amps for the support , just not the start..... duh tunnel vision. I changed the amps first before I hooked the ac to it so It would not have a problem with the default 24 amp setting, it was the ags that gave me the fault.ChrisOlson wrote: »In the XW, Gen Support works as long as it has power on the AC2 input - it doesn't have to be activated by the XW-AGS. I can manually start the generator with its switch and I just get a warning message on the SCP that says the gen was started by it's switch and have to use its switch to stop it. Everything works normally otherwise, including battery charging and Gen Support.
What you would not be able to program using the AUX output to start a generator based on low voltage is all the trigger options that are unique to the AGS. And those trigger options include several timers for low DC V start, Start Load, Stop Load, etc.. And there are also trigger options to stop the generator based on voltage, or whether you want to stop it at absorb or float, and so on.
I think for the $150 bucks that the AGS costs, it's well worth it just for the configurability of it.
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Chris
If I understand the scheme right, what it is doing, is take's the AC input converts and feed's more DC current to the Inverter. 2 transformers ?? . Yours might be syncing to the AC, but the SW can't and they don't want it to because of the 30 amp transfer relay. So it's really Battery Bank Support.
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Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringBlackcherry04 wrote: »That is true, but here is the problem. It doesn't say if it has to function, to me functioning would mean it would to have at least Run Signal, but maybe not
Blackcherry04 - a simple method of supplying a B+ signal to the AGS when using it with grid power and a contactor would be to have a little wall wart that outputs 12VDC plugged in on the load side of your grid disconnect contactor. As soon as the contactor closes, the wall wart would supply the B+ to wire 12 and send wire 13 back to the wall wart output ground.
In theory, it shouldn't know the difference between that and a two-wire generator that supplies a run signal.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringBlackcherry04 wrote: »If I understand the scheme right, what it is doing, is take's the AC input converts and feed's more DC current to the Inverter. 2 transformers ?? . Yours might be syncing to the AC, but the SW can't and they don't want it to because of the 30 amp transfer relay. So it's really Battery Bank Support.
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Gosh, are you sure? That seems kind of strange, but I suppose it could do that.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringChrisOlson wrote: »In the XW, Gen Support works as long as it has power on the AC2 input - it doesn't have to be activated by the XW-AGS. I can manually start the generator with its switch and I just get a warning message on the SCP that says the gen was started by it's switch and have to use its switch to stop it.
Actually, it shows the warning because you have AGS attached. Without AGS it wouldn't.ChrisOlson wrote: »What you would not be able to program using the AUX output to start a generator based on low voltage is all the trigger options that are unique to the AGS. And those trigger options include several timers for low DC V start, Start Load, Stop Load, etc.. And there are also trigger options to stop the generator based on voltage, or whether you want to stop it at absorb or float, and so on.
Of course, with the real generator it all makes sense. But if you simply want to turn on and off the grid power to emulate a generator, you do not need much versatility. -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringBlackcherry04 wrote: »If I understand the scheme right, what it is doing, is take's the AC input converts and feed's more DC current to the Inverter. 2 transformers ?? . Yours might be syncing to the AC, but the SW can't and they don't want it to because of the 30 amp transfer relay. So it's really Battery Bank Support.
It sort of negates the benefits of running the generator straight through and avoiding conversion losses.
Does it really have 2 transformers? It would almost double the size (and price?). -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringActually, it shows the warning because you have AGS attached. Without AGS it wouldn't.
Ah - yes, you are right. Never thought of that.Of course, with the real generator it all makes sense. But if you simply want to turn on and off the grid power to emulate a generator, you do not need much versatility.
I was just thinking about it from the standpoint of minimizing the use of the grid. I'm really impressed with the XW/XW-AGS in its ability to manage the generator and minimize its run time. For Start Load/Stop load, for instance, it does not waste generator power charging batteries in between load spikes like the SW Plus did. If it starts the gen for voltage sag due to a very heavy overload, it only runs the gen the necessary amount to recover the bank voltage, then shuts it off - where the SW Plus used to do a full absorb cycle before shutting it off.
I think those same virtues would be handy using it on a grid supplied AC2 source too and give a person more options as to how they wanted to use the grid (fake generator) power rather than just using a low voltage start and high voltage stop configuration. The Start Load/Stop load is the most useful of all the features in it when you want to use a generator for peak load support instead of buying multiple inverters for peak load. And without XW-AGS you don't have that.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
I wonder if the OP Clif is even bothering to look at this thread anymore? -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
I hadn't looked in it yet. It doesn't seem that they could use the same one, at the same time, but it does weigh 73 lb, 15 lb more than the old one.It sort of negates the benefits of running the generator straight through and avoiding conversion losses.
Does it really have 2 transformers? It would almost double the size (and price?). -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
I thought of that , but the whole subject does all dovetail into what he's trying to do. With a small battery bank, he'll have to supplement it with Grid power if he can trick the inverter into thinking it's a Generator it won't default to Sell. Looked like he was trying to get a Firmware up-grade today.Cariboocoot wrote: »I wonder if the OP Clif is even bothering to look at this thread anymore? -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringChrisOlson wrote: »I was just thinking about it from the standpoint of minimizing the use of the grid. I'm really impressed with the XW/XW-AGS in its ability to manage the generator and minimize its run time.
Sure, if you want to minimize grid, you can use more versatility. It does take a lot of thinking, tweaking and testing ...ChrisOlson wrote: »For Start Load/Stop load, for instance, it does not waste generator power charging batteries in between load spikes like the SW Plus did. If it starts the gen for voltage sag due to a very heavy overload, it only runs the gen the necessary amount to recover the bank voltage, then shuts it off - where the SW Plus used to do a full absorb cycle before shutting it off.
When you start and stop generator frequently, wouldn't it wear it off more quickly? Like cars. If you always drive on highway, the engine wears much less than when you drive stop-n-go in the city traffc. Generator is certainly different because it always run at the same speed. Except when it is starting and stopping. Wouldn't it be easier for the generator to run for longer periods rather than start and stop frequently? -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringCariboocoot wrote: »I wonder if the OP Clif is even bothering to look at this thread anymore?
I hope so because there's several ideas he could use, that have been presented here, to use his system without selling power back to the grid.
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Chrsi -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringWhen you start and stop generator frequently, wouldn't it wear it off more quickly?
Not with air-cooled engines that use a splash lube system with ball bearing mains. There's nothing that really wears out with start/stop cycles and they don't really care. If the generator has a liquid cooled engine (tighter tolerances) plus a pressure lube system with plain journal mains (again tighter tolerances), then starting and stopping all the time would probably shorten its life. But air-cooled engines with a splash lube system are basically tougher than whale snot and the only way to really hurt one is to run it out of oil.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
I tried the Load Shave settings to see what they do. I started our little generator and the loads in the house are quite low right now - only about 400 watts. I set the Load Shave amps to 2 in the Grid Support menu and set the times so it was active. Then I turned on the microwave to see what it does. It had unloaded the generator and was just letting it free-spin not doing a dang thing. The whole works was running off batteries.
***?
So I whipped out the AGS manual and read it and it says it only works if the battery voltage is between LBCO +2V and the Grid Support V setting. Oh, OK. I got the Grid Supp Volts set too low. So I set the Grid Support Volts up above bank voltage and tried it. Then it worked fine - pulled 2 amps off the generator and the rest off batteries. Evidently, if the bank voltage gets too high - above that Grid Supp Volts setting, it won't use the generator.
I'm wondering why Clif can't use that Load Shave feature? (actually NorthGuy had suggested this earlier - I was just unsure as to what it does)
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringCariboocoot wrote: »I wonder if the OP Clif is even bothering to look at this thread anymore?
I am reading it about twice a day. Several of my questions have gone unanswered and I am hoping someone has some advice on those issues. Thanks everyone for all the great input. I am trying to wrap my head around using the ASG. I am not concerned that some power goes to the grid. I am concerned with damaging my batteries because I do not have the 600 amp hrs that I need to draw the full 6000 watts from the inverter and I am concerned because even when the solar panels are putting out enough to handle all the loads there can still be considerable power drawn from the grid. I am also trying to find out if the batteries can be damaged when the panels are putting out 5000 watts and I am using that to power loads on the inverter sub panel since it appears to me that power goes through the batteries. Am I wrong? -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
Yes, fortunately you are wrong. The 5000 watts goes past the batteries toward the inverter and are joined by 1000 watts from the batteries (or the grid) to handle your 6000 watt load.I am also trying to find out if the batteries can be damaged when the panels are putting out 5000 watts and I am using that to power loads on the inverter sub panel since it appears to me that power goes through the batteries. Am I wrong?
If your load is only 3000 watts, then 3000 watts goes past the batteries to the load and 2000 watts goes into the batteries, assuming they are discharged enough to accept it.
If your load is 1000 watts and the batteries are fully charged, the panels will only produce 1000 of the 5000 watts that they are capable of and nothing will be damaged. Or if you have a grid connection the extra 4000 watts will be sold (or given) back to the power company.SMA SB 3000, old BP panels. -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringI've just looked at the menus in my XW, and I couldn't find a setting that would limit amps drawn from AC1, such as "Gen Supp Amps" for AC2 (except AC1 breaker size of course). Where is it?
They're trying to tell XW not to use grid at all, as opposed to supporting the grid.
This is correct . I am not trying to support the grid. I do have grid support and sell turnd on so that power not used by the inverter subpanel is available to loads on the main panel. Load shaving seems to actually sell power from the batteries to the grid when I have no load. Not something I want to do in the daytime but maybe at night . -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringYes, fortunately you are wrong.
Great. So is it correct to say that I can protect my batteries by limiting the amps available for grid support. That would solve half of my problem. The rest is load managment issues. I need the grid connected to the inverter on grid support and sell to make power available to the main panel loads. I don't see a way around that. Some main panel loads can be put on the inverter subpanel but some like the 1 hp well pump , the 50 amp 7 1/2 horsepower compressor, and the 100 amp welder can't. It is confusing to me because on the one hand power needs to go to the main load panel and on the other hand I see power coming in from the grid when I should not need it. I am thinking maybe the best I can do is shift some things to daytime usage ( washing machine, timer on hot water heater,etc) . Use load shaving to let the batteries drop to 85% at night. If I shut off charging at night would that help? I have to read the stuff on the AGS again. Thanks everyone. -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
It seems like my head would hurt less if I was just straight grid tie. The expense of the batteries is going to be very large over the years and the savings from load share very small. The costs of the batteries would probally pay for a generator and ALOT of fuel. I have to admit though it was fun yesterday when the guy next door asked if the power was off to my house for 1 1/2 hour in the morning to get to say "I don't know ". -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringIt seems like my head would hurt less if I was just straight grid tie. The expense of the batteries is going to be very large over the years
Welcome to the world of off-grid power. The thing is - those batteries will die whether they get worked and used or set around stratified on float and give them a polish job every day. You'll actually get your money's worth out of them if you work them.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringIt seems like my head would hurt less if I was just straight grid tie. The expense of the batteries is going to be very large over the years and the savings from load share very small. The costs of the batteries would probally pay for a generator and ALOT of fuel. I have to admit though it was fun yesterday when the guy next door asked if the power was off to my house for 1 1/2 hour in the morning to get to say "I don't know ".
The batteries give you power during outage. If you don't try to use them to shift loads, that's about only difference with grid-tie.
If you want to use your batteries to minimize grid usage you should try to never charge them from the grid. When you charge your batteries, you use roughly 1.5 times more energy than you can get back. To minimize grid usage, you should try to do the following:
- at day time: power your loads from inverter (which gets its energy directly from solar controller). If anything's left, charge batteries. If anyhing's left sell it.
If there's not enough power from the sun or for large loads, use grid power.
- at nght time: use your batteries to power loads. If batteries are at 50% or less or for large loads, use grid power.
To set this up will take a lot of thinking and testing.
If I were you, after the power company did that to me, I would double my system and that would be enough to go completely off grid. Or perhaps you can say them that if they don't do net metering as they promised you go off grid. They may understand that it's better to lose a part than a whole and give you net metering. -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net meteringI am reading it about twice a day. Several of my questions have gone unanswered and I am hoping someone has some advice on those issues. Thanks everyone for all the great input. I am trying to wrap my head around using the ASG.
I'm going to recommend NOT using the AGS with the grid as a "fake" generator. Your battery bank is too small for that. We use it for our off-grid system here with Gen Support and Start Load amps and I've found that the XW6048 doesn't have methods to adjust for the time that the battery bank is required to carry extreme loads before it can call for help from the gen. Without enough battery behind it that just wouldn't work.
The system is designed to minimize use of the generator, which is good. But it also requires enough battery power to operate the inverter at loads up to and including 8 kW for at least five minutes unless you'd set the Start Load amps very low - in which case it would be starting and stopping the generator a dozen times a day for load amps. That simply isn't practical either with either a generator or using grid power as a "fake" generator because it assumes need for Gen Support when that happens, and if the load isn't high enough it will charge batteries instead. And you don't want to charge batteries with grid power (or gen power for that matter).
So I think that idea is no-go unless you buy enough battery power to make it work.
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Chris -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
Remember it also depends on your loads... For my home, the most I ever use is a couple KWatts peak (microwave, fridge+freezer, natural gas heat, etc.)... You have a 6+ kW capable AC inverter on a ~3kW capable battery bank. If your peak loads are 3kW or less (less than 6kW surge for well pump, etc.), then the smaller bank is OK for your needs.
By the way, what was the size of your solar array (if you can setup your signature with your basic information, that would help).
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Help with XW6048 settings with no net metering
I guess I don't see it, he has all kinds of flexibility on what he has on the loads panel. All the big stuff he can run on the grid from the entrance panel. I have some of my stuff on double throw breakers where I can move it from one source to another depending on the season. It's a power management deal. I have my Outback on the grid, with the Gen settings, I am still tweaking it, but it's doing well. I have all the selling shut down. If he sets the QT to daylight hours there won't be any charging by the grid, unless he sets a override.
The heck with selling power for $.03.
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