192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?

Psyfy
Psyfy Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
in Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum #1
Hi,

Does anyone use or know of a battery charger to suit a 192vdc @ 500Ah pack?

Looking for something 3 stage at around C10 to C20. At C10 that's a pretty hefty 10kw charger but realistically, I've 6kw to throw at it. :)

Can't find anything commercial so any info, ideas or a schematic would be great.



thanks,
Psyfy
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Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?

    Where on Earth did you find such a battery and why would you want to use it and for what?

    Sounds like something pulled from a commercial continuous converting UPS unit. Likely not suitable for any RE application.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,622 admin
    #3
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?

    In solar RE--I don't know of any charger that would work on the whole battery bank voltage. Assuming you can get to various points in the battery bank, you could break it into 1/2 (or smaller) segments and use multiple charge controllers to charge each block. Midnite makes the highest voltage solar MPPT battery charger I am aware of (I am not in the business--just from reading the board here).... But even then, you have to be careful. Most charge controllers assume one end of the battery bank to be at "ground" -- So you can get into some issues with signal grounding levels (RS 232 communications, networking signals, etc.).

    You might need 4 of the Midnite controllers (two in parallel, two strings in series across 1/2 the battery each) to do this bank.

    Also double check the battery charging requirements. Many (but not all) GEL batteries have a C/20 current limit (over charging current can create gas pockets in the GEL which do not "go away").

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?

    Someone around here did find a charger for that battery voltage - but it was an AC charger, not solar if that is what you are looking for. I wish I had saved the link, but if you dig around here you'll find it. If you were talking ~20 kw or less then some APC UPSs would work for you, but you have a 96 kw battery bank... are you sure you didn't add a zero to that amp hour rating?
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,622 admin
    #5
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?

    Is this the one you were thinking about?
    boB wrote: »
    Using 2 controllers in series does work. Did that a lot with the MX60s for 120V banks. You really DO have to watch out
    and make sure that the two chassis grounds can handle the highest PV + to GND voltage. Remember that there are
    also (typically) MOVs from minus to chassis and PV plus to chassis that may not have a high enough voltage to handle
    both PV arrays in series which is what happens when the chassis grounds are tied together. We just had the customer
    clip the MOVs out to take care of that problem. So, it CAN work well if necessary if you do your homework.


    OK, so check out this PNW company that makes EV chargers.

    http://www.manzanitamicro.com/

    http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.browse&category_id=14&vmcchk=1

    The battery voltage range is certainly wide enough for almost anything you would need, (12 to 450 VDC) BUT, they don't take
    a solar PV input ! Darn !

    You could still use PV but would maybe need to do an AC coupling arrangement with something
    like an SMA Sunny Boy and battery based inverter to power these PFC chargers. At least they're Power
    Factor corrected. Rich Rudmand has been at this for many years now.

    boB

    solarix wrote: »
    K & W makes battery chargers for exactly this application. It is adjustable between 48 and 120Vdc for whatever you need.
    Talk to KTA services (909)949-7914 (I built my EV using them)

    MPaulHolmes wrote: »
    A single 600volt 70amp ISOTOP mosfet is only around $40, the ISOTOP freewheel diode is $21, and the capacitor bank is around $35. You don't need much of an input filter cap for a DC input. The output cap and inductor are another $40 maybe. The control/driver components are about $60. The control board is $4 each. The aluminum baseplate is $25. That's good for anything from 0v up to 350v, 35amp continuous. It's not mppt, but if you choose your battery pack and solar array voltage correctly, you'll be really close to the peak power of the panels. The way I see it, if you have a 144v battery pack, it's not any more dangerous to charge it than it is to actually have it. I hadn't realized that there wasn't anything for this... We already have like 150 electric cars on the road using the motor controller. Maybe it would be worth making a high voltage DC input charger kit. The motor controller kit is just soldered by people, and then then stick it in their car and drive away:
    http://ecomodder.com/forum/open-revolt-open-source-dc-motor-controller.html

    EDIT: For mppt, could you keep adjusting duty up and down slightly, multiplying current feedback by dc bus voltage, and keep moving in the direction of higher product? Is the max power a single global max, which is decreasing on either side all the way to zero?

    And some more discussions from the above thread/posts:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?17194-High-voltage-charge-controller

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Psyfy
    Psyfy Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #6
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Where on Earth did you find such a battery and why would you want to use it and for what?

    Sounds like something pulled from a commercial continuous converting UPS unit. Likely not suitable for any RE application.


    A disbelieving Thomas I see. :)

    It's one of two a modded IBM10000XHV Double Conversion UPS's. Very capable boxes; Configurable, manageable, inbuilt PFC, good surge, thermal shutdown, 19" rackable etc.

    Give me your reasons.


    Psyfy
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  • Psyfy
    Psyfy Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #7
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?
    techntrek wrote: »
    Someone around here did find a charger for that battery voltage - but it was an AC charger, not solar if that is what you are looking for. I wish I had saved the link, but if you dig around here you'll find it. If you were talking ~20 kw or less then some APC UPSs would work for you, but you have a 96 kw battery bank... are you sure you didn't add a zero to that amp hour rating?

    Hi Techntrek,

    An AC charger would be more than okay as it is an AC coupled system, so the GTI's do the MPPT. Sure, there's a slight efficiency hit but with a PWM charger it is relatively small and is therefore doable in this system.

    The UPS (IBM10000XHV) uses a max of four external RBC#44 battery packs to give 192vdc @ 50Ah. I need ten times that, so C50 not feasible because even though it might stress the batteries in the original design, it is still w-a-y too low for a solar setup. Good news is that there's an SNMP trap that allows for disabling the on-board charger, so all good there. Don't have to muck about with a stud mount blocking diode.

    Thanks for the heads up, I'll look into that charger and see what it is/does etc. If not, I'll roll my own but easier said than done. :)


    Psyfy
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  • Psyfy
    Psyfy Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #8
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?
    techntrek wrote: »
    ... but you have a 96 kw battery bank... are you sure you didn't add a zero to that amp hour rating?


    hahaha, 'fraid not...! It is 192v @ 500Ah @ 96kw. At the moment (until moved into another shed) it has access to only 6kw. Next month though, it will be fed by a 35kw GTI, so no issues of availability there.

    Psyfy
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  • Psyfy
    Psyfy Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #9
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?
    BB. wrote: »
    Is this the one you were thinking about?

    -Bill

    Hi Bill,

    There's some good info there. I guess EV's have already paved the way for HV battery packs and they have to be managed somehow. So why reinvent the wheel, unless it's for pure enjoyment.

    From a purely 'project' POV, the ISOTOP setup sounds like an interesting path but I disagree with the suggested simplistic MPPT approach. Better to look at an NXP chipset or similar but then it becomes a commercial endeavor involving TFQP's, NDA's and the like. So, will look into it further but it kills me that I don't the time at the moment to prototype 'out-of-scope' things like this.

    As far as the AC coupling scenario... I'm onto it... :)


    Psyfy
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  • Psyfy
    Psyfy Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #10
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?

    Just ordered this PCB... -->> http://www.emotorwerks.com/emw3/product/charger-pcb-v3/

    Psyfy
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?

    hope you checked for the power factor corrected one.
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #12
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?

    Here's a combined inverter/charger that will handle battery up to 250V: http://www.ingeteam.com/EN/ProductsandServices/Energy/Photovoltaic/Products.aspx?TIPO=PTD&ITEMID=11693&IDIOMA=EN&PRT=SBP&PRTID=2
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?
    BB. wrote: »
    Is this the one you were thinking about? ...

    http://www.manzanitamicro.com/produc...id=14&vmcchk=1

    ...

    -Bill

    That's the one!
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: 192vdc @ 500Ah VRLA/Gel battery charger?
    Psyfy wrote: »
    Hi Techntrek,
    ...
    The UPS (IBM10000XHV) uses a max of four external RBC#44 battery packs to give 192vdc @ 50Ah. ... Good news is that there's an SNMP trap that allows for disabling the on-board charger, ...

    Sounds like a rebrand of the APC SURT10000XLT. Interesting that you see an option to disable the on-board charger, I haven't seen that on any of the SURTs I've had. You can go into a special programming mode to adjust the charger output, I guess theoretically you could adjust it to 0 to disable it. I had a SURT10000XLT last year but sold it, now I have a SURT6000XLT (see my sig).
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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