Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini

bondedinkbondedink Registered Users Posts: 8
Hello everyone! I am new to the site and these forums, and don't have any background in this except what i learned in high school physics and my venture on you tube. My goal is to build a system for use in an RV that myself and my family will use once or twice a week, on weekends...sometimes for extended stays in the summer. I will be building my own wind turbine out of old ceiling fans...most are 2 phase. I also have a few solar panels, one i bought from CT...although the controller doesn't look like a keeper, the panels seems ok. Also, i will be building a bedini motor to trickle charge the batteries when solar and wind are not an option.

I would like some input on some of the hardware i should get, and the types of things i'll need....like controllers, inverter size, battery bank size and the like. RIght now, my plan is to get 3 12V 14 Ah batteries and start with that. I've been collecting the necessary supplies over the last month or so, and have almost everything i need to start the wind turbine...just waiting for a few more neodymium magnets to come before i can finish the turbine and start the bedini.

We plan to run a small fridge, some lights, and maybe a radio or tv or something similar...I would really like to find a way to heat some water for a shower as a dump. I live on the east coast of Canada, and wind here is never an issue.....it's always windy here...some times too windy...which is another issue i know.

I'm here to learn, and to play, and any comments or questions are welcome. I will post pics and info until i finish the project....although there may be some time inbetween...cuz i'm no fabricator by any stretch of the imagination. I'll give you some more info on other parts i have collected and wether or not they're working for me. If anyone has tried this, i would love to read the thread!!

Thanks for any help or comments you can provide!!

Comments

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini

    here is a "short" read around generators, that contains a lot of good info about what a 'balanced solar/wind system might look like.http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?18459-Demonstration-of-Generator-Support
    Much bigger than you are looking at but still applicable.

    this one goes into the making of a good turbine, http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?18459-Demonstration-of-Generator-Support

    HTH
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • stephendvstephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    We plan to run a small fridge, some lights, and maybe a radio or tv or something similar...I would really like to find a way to heat some water for a shower as a dump. I live on the east coast of Canada, and wind here is never an issue.....it's always windy here...some times too windy...which is another issue i know.

    Hi,

    To design the system you should really start from the loads then design the batteries and the charging sources to meet those loads. The first number you need is how many kWh you will use per day. 3 x 12V 14Ah batteries is 3 x 12 x 14 = 504Wh of capacity. If they're deep cycle batteries then you could draw them down 50%, so that's effectively 252Wh of useable energy, probably enough to run only a small TV for 2-3 hours. So it's quite important to get the loads right, in order to size the rest of the components!

    For an RV, I'd imagine that solar would be a lot less trouble than wind: easy to setup and a more constant output. I'm not familiar with the "bedini" generator, but if it's the one touted as providing "free energy" and not using "conventional laws of electricity" then you'd have better luck creating a generator powered by unicorns ;)

    The Honda EU series of inverter generators provide a nice quiet and reliable form of backup power and would be perfect for an RV.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini

    Bedini generator: "It is running off the principles of electromagnetics that Nikola Tesla discovered shortly before 1900 in his Colorado Springs experiments. It is running off the fact that empty vacuum - pure "emptiness", so to speak - is filled with rivers and oceans of seething energy, just as Nikola Tesla pointed out."
    Oh wow. Here we go again.
  • john pjohn p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini

    BONDEDEDINK. I dont like to be the bearer of bad news BUT...
    Hello everyone! I am new to the site and these forums, and don't have any background in this except what i learned in high school physics and my venture on you tube. My goal is to build a system for use in an RV ????that myself and my family will use once or twice a week, on weekends...sometimes for extended stays in the summer. I will be building my own wind turbine out of old ceiling fans...most are 2 phase.The average 3ft ceiling fan consumes about 50w so in a constant wind about 15mph. (thats very windy) that would be the theoretical max you are going to get. In reality you would get about 30w.Not a lot to do anything with I also have a few solar panels, one i bought from CT...although the controller doesn't look like a keeper, the panels seems ok. The solar panels are they all identical?if not the output you get will be mostly limited by the lowest spec one.mounting and orienting them to face the sun is not easy on a RV. As you are in Canada in winter you would be looking at about one hour of usable sun on the panels each day.Also, i will be building a bedini motor to trickle charge the batteries when solar and wind are not an option.If you build the bedini generator and can get more than enough power out of it to power a 5w lamp it would be a miracle,beyond just about all other claimed miracles.You will need a very well equipped metalworking shop and lots of engineering skills to build it.And then if you had those skills you wouldnt waste your time building it.

    I would like some input on some of the hardware i should get, and the types of things i'll need....like controllers, inverter size, battery bank size and the like. RIght now, my plan is to get 3 12V 14 Ah batteries and start with thatto power what? certainly not any inverter over about 50w. I've been collecting the necessary supplies over the last month or so, and have almost everything i need to start the wind turbine...just waiting for a few more neodymium magnets to come before i can finish the turbine and start the bedini.Just about now you will wake up from your dream and face reality,your dream task is nothing more than that.

    We plan to run a small fridge,will require about 2x 100 ahr batteries3x100 w solar panels a 30a charge controller and a 1500w inverter some lights, and maybe a radio or tv or something similar...I would really like to find a way to heat some water for a shower as a dump.Buy a water heater conversion kit to connect to the RV engine for hot water. I live on the east coast of Canada, and wind here is never an issue.....it's always windy here...some times too windy...which is another issue i know.

    I'm here to learn, and to play, and any comments or questions are welcome. I will post pics and info until i finish the project....although there may be some time inbetween...cuz i'm no fabricator by any stretch of the imagination. I'll give you some more info on other parts i have collected and wether or not they're working for me. If anyone has tried this, i would love to read the thread!!. Ijust cant wait to see a finished bedini generator that produces anyuseful output. And have had one one order from the tooth fairy,santa claus,snow whiteand the 7 dwarfs.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    ... I will be building my own wind turbine out of old ceiling fans...most are 2 phase....
    I would really like to find a way to heat some water for a shower as a dump...

    Hmmm.
    1. Most motors, except permanent magnet motors, will not produce any output at all when the shaft is driven. There has to be something to create a magnetic field before electrical power can generated.
    2. Two phase? Not used much of anywhere anymore. The center tapped 240/120 which is used in the US is properly called split phase, and is really just single phase with two polarities.
    3. Heating water as a dump load is often a good idea, but you have to do some calculating to find the right resistance heating elements to use, and it will depend on the output voltage of your wind turbine. (See #1).
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • bondedinkbondedink Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini

    Thanks everyone for your input...even you JohnP for your colorful commentary...it was pretty funny....anyway, here's the guts from the first wind turbine i'll be building. I have the bridge rectifiers ordered and cannot test the DC output until i do. There are 16 groups of magnets, all n54 neodymium. From each set of coils, spinning by hand at around 120 rpm, i get ~24volts. I plan on making two of these.

    Cheers...i'll write again when i have more.


    EDIT: I"ve scrapped he 14Ah battery idea...there just won't be enough juice...I have some batteries from Alpha that are rated at 240 minutes @ 20Amp draw. I will be getting 8 of them. Does anyone have a suggestion for a wind charge controller? I've looked on ebay, and some other sites...the ones on ebay look cheap....some of the ones on retail sites are fairly expensive...is there a compromise to be found here?...or do you have to drop fair amount of cash for a wind controller?
  • bondedinkbondedink Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini

    For an RV, I'd imagine that solar would be a lot less trouble than wind: easy to setup and a more constant output. I'm not familiar with the "bedini" generator, but if it's the one touted as providing "free energy" and not using "conventional laws of electricity" then you'd have better luck creating a generator powered by unicorns



    THe energy is not free....you're basically converting magnetic energy into electric energy. Look up some DADHAV videos on youtube....he's legit. No claims, just all experiments. 8)
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    Thanks everyone for your input...even you JohnP for your colorful commentary...it was pretty funny....anyway, here's the guts from the first wind turbine i'll be building. I have the bridge rectifiers ordered and cannot test the DC output until i do. There are 16 groups of magnets, all n54 neodymium. From each set of coils, spinning by hand at around 120 rpm, i get ~24volts.

    Interesting! I have not looked hard at the insides of a classic fan motor before. I wonder whether the setup with the alternating half-step coils and pole pieces (inner and outer circles) will be as useful on a generator as they when it is a motor. The air gap between your magnets and your pole pieces seems a little large from what I have heard.
    getting 24 volts from a spin sounds encouraging, but it will be even more interesting to see what current you get. The phase relationship between the inner and outer coils should require you to put separate rectifiers on each groups, since their output waveforms should be about 90 degrees out of phase with each other.

    If you short out one or both windings, do you feel a strong resistance to rotation? If you do, that is a good sign.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    The energy is not free....you're basically converting magnetic energy into electric energy.

    Let us know how it works. I'm working on a device that converts gravity energy into something, but so far it's consuming gravity and things weigh less after I turn it on.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini

    Whenever I see one of these "I'm turning a motor into a wind turbine" projects I have to wonder if they ever think about the fact that these motors were not designed to operate outside in all kinds of weather for 365 days a year. Sure, it may start out working but how long will it last? Isn't it a shame to see all your efforts destroyed in one storm?

    Don't mind me; I'm just old and every project I've done in the past 50 years has worked.
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    Whenever I see one of these "I'm turning a motor into a wind turbine" projects I have to wonder if they ever think about the fact that these motors were not designed to operate outside in all kinds of weather for 365 days a year. Sure, it may start out working but how long will it last? Isn't it a shame to see all your efforts destroyed in one storm?

    Coot, like the Bible says: "There's a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance."
    Well, this is the time to ignore reality.
  • stephendvstephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    There are 16 groups of magnets, all n54 neodymium. From each set of coils, spinning by hand at around 120 rpm, i get ~24volts. I plan on making two of these.

    That sound promising, might even be on the high side, i.e. too high voltage for the RPMs if you intended this for a 24V battery. I'm guessing here, but I think upwards of 300rpm is good match for most turbine designs. Might be handy to buy the wind turbine books by Hugh Piggott which explains how all these variables fit together and also how to wire the turbine, controller and dump loads.
    bondedink wrote: »
    EDIT: I"ve scrapped he 14Ah battery idea...there just won't be enough juice...I have some batteries from Alpha that are rated at 240 minutes @ 20Amp draw. I will be getting 8 of them. Does anyone have a suggestion for a wind charge controller? I've looked on ebay, and some other sites...the ones on ebay look cheap....some of the ones on retail sites are fairly expensive...is there a compromise to be found here?...or do you have to drop fair amount of cash for a wind controller?

    Do you have a spec on those batteries, they really must be "deep cycle" batteries, else they'll be dead within a year. 240 minutes @ 20A = 80Ah. 8 of them = 640Ah at 12V or 320Ah at 24V. If they really are deep cycle batteries then you should be able to use 50% of their capacity max, so that's 160Ah at 24V = 3840Wh of useable energy from the batteries.

    Regarding the wind charge controller, I don't recommend buying cheap stuff- if the controller fails then it's possible that the battery will overcharge and you may have wasted all that investment in the battery. Rather buy a well known brand such as morningtar tristar or xantrex, you'll need a dump load too. BTW, have you checked the price of solar panels as a comparison?

    As for the bedini or any non-mainstream technology I find it easier to look at the economics of these inventions rather than the physics. There are companies who's sole purpose is to build generator heads and generators. They are in a constant battle with one another to build more efficient and cheaper ways of turning motion and magnetism into electricity. That's millions and millions of dollars going into research to improve electric motors and generator every year. Not 1 of them uses a bedini generator.
  • bondedinkbondedink Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    stephendv wrote: »
    That sound promising, might even be on the high side, i.e. too high voltage for the RPMs if you intended this for a 24V battery. I'm guessing here, but I think upwards of 300rpm is good match for most turbine designs. Might be handy to buy the wind turbine books by Hugh Piggott which explains how all these variables fit together and also how to wire the turbine, controller and dump loads.

    Thanks! The batteries are 12V. How high a voltage would be ideal for those batteries connected in parallel? The voltage can be adjusted heavily by increasing the gap between the magnets and the coils (by using thinner magnets) or minutely by reducing the number of magnets to decrease the force (but still keeping the same gap).


    Do you have a spec on those batteries, they really must be "deep cycle" batteries, else they'll be dead within a year. 240 minutes @ 20A = 80Ah. 8 of them = 640Ah at 12V or 320Ah at 24V. If they really are deep cycle batteries then you should be able to use 50% of their capacity max, so that's 160Ah at 24V = 3840Wh of useable energy from the batteries.

    They are deep cycle batteries...so i was told. When i looked on the alpha site, it was confirmed...though they don't rate their batteries with amp hours...When i get them, i'll check the

    Regarding the wind charge controller, I don't recommend buying cheap stuff- if the controller fails then it's possible that the battery will overcharge and you may have wasted all that investment in the battery. Rather buy a well known brand such as morningtar tristar or xantrex, you'll need a dump load too. BTW, have you checked the price of solar panels as a comparison?

    I am not looking for a cheap one, however, a lot I've seen appear to be over priced...and some reviews of those overpriced products confirm that you don't always get what you pay for. Thank you for the suggestions. I have looked at solar panels, and i would like to have more than one way to charge the bank... CT has 30W ones on sale now for $65..i would like to add two more to the one I have now....the weather in Cape Breton can change in a minute, and can go through 4 seasons in one day sometimes. Having more than one alternative to charge would be better than to rely on one source. Have you heard anything about this one...??

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/271159364736?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


    As for the bedini or any non-mainstream technology I find it easier to look at the economics of these inventions rather than the physics. There are companies who's sole purpose is to build generator heads and generators. They are in a constant battle with one another to build more efficient and cheaper ways of turning motion and magnetism into electricity. That's millions and millions of dollars going into research to improve electric motors and generator every year. Not 1 of them uses a bedini generator.

    I may have to build 3 or 4 to power the bank as an alternative. The best thing about the bedini is that it is compact...and inexpensive. The most expensive thing about it are the magnets...whI think the people here are not concerned with generating power for a camper, or RV, the are more concerned with commercial aspects of power generation and therefore always have to get "MORE POWER"!!! lol....whereas the bedini motor is small scale.

    Thanks again for your input!! Cheers

  • bondedinkbondedink Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    Whenever I see one of these "I'm turning a motor into a wind turbine" projects I have to wonder if they ever think about the fact that these motors were not designed to operate outside in all kinds of weather for 365 days a year. Sure, it may start out working but how long will it last? Isn't it a shame to see all your efforts destroyed in one storm?

    Don't mind me; I'm just old and every project I've done in the past 50 years has worked.

    Well if you've done projects that have failed in the past, then I guess i'm right on par with you am I not?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    Well if you've done projects that have failed in the past, then I guess i'm right on par with you am I not?

    Read that post of mine again.
  • bondedinkbondedink Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    Let us know how it works. I'm working on a device that converts gravity energy into something, but so far it's consuming gravity and things weigh less after I turn it on.

    Gravity is a force produced by our moon, and is subject to change depending on your location in relation to the moon. It is merely impossible for gravity to be consumed...unless you destroy our moon. Good luck with that. A magnet is still a magnet in space. Additionally, a magnet would work better in space...especially close to Jupiter...4 moons, 4x the power!! I suggest you pick a different "energy" device to work on....keep me posted.
  • bondedinkbondedink Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    Read that post of mine again.

    I did...and my windmill will not be out for 365 days a year. It will be out when weather permits. If you've done things that have failed, why discourage other from learning the same lesson? If i build this thing and it is utterly destroyed in the wind for whatever reason, I will have still learned quite a bit.

    The amount of negativity from mods and senior members of this site is surprising. Intelligence is often overshadowed by arrogance. A closed mind is an indication that you have stopped learning.....but thanks for the insight.

  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    Gravity is a force produced by our moon, and is subject to change depending on your location in relation to the moon.

    Wayne and Cariboocoot are "looney" in a quite different sense. :-)

    Gravity is a phenomenon. A gravitational field is produced by the moon, the earth, the sun, dark matter, and your next door neighbor, just in varying quantities.
    When I see someone who appears not to recognize sarcasm, but is a tempting target for it, I usually give up on the conversation.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • bondedinkbondedink Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    inetdog wrote: »
    Interesting! I have not looked hard at the insides of a classic fan motor before. I wonder whether the setup with the alternating half-step coils and pole pieces (inner and outer circles) will be as useful on a generator as they when it is a motor. The air gap between your magnets and your pole pieces seems a little large from what I have heard.
    getting 24 volts from a spin sounds encouraging, but it will be even more interesting to see what current you get. The phase relationship between the inner and outer coils should require you to put separate rectifiers on each groups, since their output waveforms should be about 90 degrees out of phase with each other.



    If you short out one or both windings, do you feel a strong resistance to rotation? If you do, that is a good sign.

    Yes, there is a strong resistance. There is an evident "cogging" effect. As far as the current goes, I cannot seem to work this multimeter i have. would the two sets of coil wires have to be connected to test the amps? I"m in the process of trying to find the answer to that one...as obvious as it might be. Like i said, the last time i studied any of this was in high school...20 years ago. lol

    The air gap is pretty decent, and I cannot get them any closer with any combination of the magnets i have...(1/16 and 1/32). So it'll have to do. I would like to build two of these ideally. I'll be cutting the blades this weekend to fit them.

    Thanks for the input!!
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    Yes, there is a strong resistance. There is an evident "cogging" effect. As far as the current goes, I cannot seem to work this multimeter i have. would the two sets of coil wires have to be connected to test the amps?

    I would expect cogging, and should have said that is not what I was referring to. If you have a good flywheel effect, the cogging with the coils open-circuited should not slow the spin very quickly. But with the coils shorted, it should be like applying a brake.

    If the two circles of coils are wired independently in series (check with your ohmmeter function) you should be able to measure AC current on each set of coils separately. Put the meter on the AC amps function, make sure the test leads are plugged into the correct holes in the meter for that function, and then attach one lead to each end of same set of coils. Turn the rotor slowly and see what happens.

    Measuring the resistance of one set of coils will give you an idea what is the maximum current you can expect will be for a given speed and voltage.

    If the original wiring of the fan included a capacitor in series with one of the two circles of coils, do not leave it in the circuit when building a generator.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Primary Wind with secondary solar and bedini
    bondedink wrote: »
    I did...and my windmill will not be out for 365 days a year. It will be out when weather permits. If you've done things that have failed, why discourage other from learning the same lesson? If i build this thing and it is utterly destroyed in the wind for whatever reason, I will have still learned quite a bit.

    The amount of negativity from mods and senior members of this site is surprising. Intelligence is often overshadowed by arrogance. A closed mind is an indication that you have stopped learning.....but thanks for the insight.

    I suggest you look for reputable case studies that show significant net energy output from a bedini generator before you spend any money on one. I doubt you'll find any.

    The laws of thermodynamics are still in effect. Loosely stated, the best you can do is break even (you don't get something for nothing) and you can never break even (there is no such thing as a completely lossless system). Charlatans have been touting perpetual motion machines for centuries and every one of them without exception has been a fraud. They try to mask their deception with claims that their "technology" is being repressed by the oil industry, or the government, or the church, or some other authority when the truth of the matter is that it just plain doesn't work. You can't run a car by burning water, and you cannot create energy out of nothing.

    But irrespective of how it may seem to you, my mind is not closed. If it works, prove it. I am an engineer; show me the numbers and back them up. I will reverse my field in a heartbeat if/when I am confronted with incontrovertible evidence. Until then, I remain skeptical.

    Be careful; if your mind is too open your brains will fall out. :D
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