batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

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ppz2012
ppz2012 Registered Users Posts: 7
Hi everybody,

This forum is full of advices, experiences, good rules, etc
I can't browse everything (but still reading interesting posts...). So my questions.
Btw, english is not my mother tongue, so apologies for my broken english and not so clean explanations :D

I need to add batteries to run electronic devices on my chevrolet express (computerized truck). After some calculus, It seems that I'll run about 1000 watts (under 120V) for about 4 hours/day. This is really a maximum.

laptop + screen + basic devices : 100 watts/hour (120V) for 4 hours = 400 watts = 40 amps under 12V
DVR + 4 cams : about 6 amps under 12V for 24h = 144 amps under 12V

basically (except if I made some mistakes), I'll use 200 amps/day + 10% (inverter, discharge, etc) = 220 amps

I estimated that I can install 4 batteries of 125Ah to obtain enough power and a correct ratio of discharge to keep my batteries in good health. I need to purchase my batteries and my present choice are Vmaxtanks 125Ah AGM. It seems that they have a good ratio between price and power.

I'll hook to this bank a pure sine inverter (1000W, 2000W peak). I need to hook also a charger to keep my bank charged (probably overnight). I thought about solar panels at the beginning, but 10% of 500Ah mean 50A solar panels, aka 600 watts. Seems to be big for my truck (and for the price, I don't have the problem to charge the bank overnight and electricity is cheap in Quebec).

About the charger, I hesitate between a Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power PD9260C and a Schumacher automatic Wheeled 55/20/2A charger. Maybe a newbie choice, but I'm a newbie...
I don't see any (dis)advantage between them.

I'll hook the batteries in parallel to obtain a bank of 12V 500Ah. I think 2gauges wires are ok.

another question after re-reading everything : may (should) I use a desulfator with AGM batteries ? It's unclear for me if batteries balancing is the same as desulfating and so on (again, newbie).

Give me a favor : feel free to comment my errors ! I need to respect a budget (this is for my work) and I don't have zillions of $ for my purpose. My estimate here :

batteries : 1000$
batteries wires and connectors : 150$
inverter : 200$
charger : 150$

Thank you very much for your comments !

Mike

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Welcome to the forum, Mike.

    Let's look at one bit at a time and see what we're dealing with, okay?

    Your first power usage estimate is 1000 Watts maximum for 4 hours. That's 4 kW hours. That's a lot of power, especially if you have to drag it out of a 12 Volt system.
    Basic math: 4000 Watt hours / 12 Volts = 334 Amp hours used, requiring at least 668 Amp hours of battery. Ouch.

    If you have the 120 VAC equipment you want to power, run it through a Kill-A-Watt meter to see what it really uses under typical use. You'd be amazed at how different that number can be from one calculated based on power supply specifications.

    If that battery bank size is even close to correct you are right to forgo the solar panels: enough panels for that much battery won't fit on the van. Recharging from the grid will be much cheaper and easier. If you need recharging power on the go, a small inverter-generator is your best bet.

    Deep cycle batteries are not going to recharge properly from a standard automotive type battery charger. They need the Absorb stage to be properly charged, and that means buying something like an Iota: http://www.solar-electric.com/bach1.html

    Keeping multiple parallel batteries balanced is difficult. Some info on battery wiring here: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

    The consensus of opinion around here is that desulphators are not worth investing in.

    The first thing you must do is get a really accurate number on the power needs. Any off-grid system design is dependent on that information. We will be glad to clarify anything your not clear on. Just ask! If you have to ask several times that's fine; we'll find a way to explain it that makes sense.
  • ppz2012
    ppz2012 Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Thank you Cariboocoot for your fast reply (yeah, a supermoderator for my first reply...)

    About wattage :

    I don't use 1000 watts each hour. I estimate for my laptop + basic : 100 watts per hour (1 amp under 120V) and I'll use those devices about 4hours/day. That means 400 watts/day. Calculating amps under 12V is 40 amps/day (under 12V), right ?

    For the DVR, it's running plain 12V DC and it's working 24h/day. My estimate is 4 Amps (DVR) + 2 Amps (cams) = 6 amps/hour running 24 hours/day means 144 Amps/day (under 12V)

    So, if I'm not wrong, I'll use 184 Amps/day (average) or 8 amps per hour (under 12V). Dissipation and so =>> 10 amps per hour.
    If I have a battery bank of 4X 125Ah, I think I have enough... or am I totally wrong in my conversion ?

    My mistake was probably due that I wrote 1000 watts for about 4 hours/day. I should probably write 1000 watts in the whole day (but my device will run only 4 hours/day)...

    Updating my calculus... max 10 amps/hours X 24 = 240 amps for the whole day.

    > basically (except if I made some mistakes), I'll use 200 amps/day + 10% (inverter, discharge, etc) = 220 amps / A day

    Is it better now ?

    Thank you again
    Mike
  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Yes try a kill-a-watt meter. That little $20 peice of junk can save you a lot of time and money.
    You will find the rated draw on your electronic equipment is no where near what the sticker says, unless its an air compressor or other motorized power tool like a grinder.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • ppz2012
    ppz2012 Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Btw, thanks for the links.

    About wiring, I browsed a lot of pages to find a balanced wiring (was closed to the second option).

    About the charger, even the manufacturer stated that this charger can charge AGM and deep cycle batteries, I cannot trust them ?

    http://www.batterychargers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductName=94040020

    Quote :

    This Advanced Technology Battery Charger utilizes a microprocessor to control both the voltage and current going to the battery to provide maximum power and the precise control needed to charge the various types of batteries on the market today; including AGM, Sealed Lead-Acid, Deep-Cycle, Spiral-Cell and Standard Automotive batteries.

    Mike
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy
    ppz2012 wrote: »
    laptop + screen + basic devices : 100 watts/hour (120V) for 4 hours = 400 watts = 40 amps under 12V
    DVR + 4 cams : about 6 amps under 12V for 24h = 144 amps under 12V

    basically (except if I made some mistakes), I'll use 200 amps/day + 10% (inverter, discharge, etc) = 220 amps

    Welcome to the forum Mike, You really need to get your units straight... you already confused Cariboocoot with your "1000 watts for 4 hours".

    Thus:
    laptop + screen + basic devices : 100 watts (at 120V) for 4 hours = 400 watthours = 33.3 amphours (at 12 volts)
    DVR + 4 cams : about 6 amps (at 12V) for 24 hours = 144 amphours (at 12V)

    I'll use 177.3 amphours per day (at 12 volts) + 10% (inverter, discharge, etc) = 195.3 amphours per day (at 12 volts).

    Also, four parallel batteries is a bad idea. Its even a worse idea if the batteries are AGM batteries. AGM batteries have lower internal resistance than flooded batteries, and some AGM manufacturers explicitly advise against using their batteries in parallel.
    read: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?14674

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Yeah, but then I'm easily confused. :p

    So you need to divide loads into AC and DC respectively.
    You might have 400 Watt hours AC loads and 1728 Watt hours DC loads. It is a good idea to always express the loads as Watt hours; only switch to Amp hours when discussing batteries. This helps reduce confusion, even for me.

    Now to gain accuracy you have to turn those AC Watt hours into DC Watt hours, which is a matter of adjusting for the conversion efficiency of the inverter. Usually 90% is close if the inverter hasn't been selected and you don't have a specific number for it. That means the 400 Watt hours AC is now 445 Watt hours DC and is added to the total.

    The DC Watt hours figure is now 1728 + 445 = 2173, and does not include the inverter draw. If you know how much power the inverter consumes this is easily added in. If you don't ... And some inverters may be able to operate in "standby mode" with your equipment and further save power. Chances are in your case the inverter will be always on while the equipment might be used.

    Once you have this grand total of DC Watt hours you can look at it in terms of system Voltage. If this system will be independent of the vehicle's electrical then you are not limited to 12 Volts. This could be a very good thing indeed. See this thread about different system Voltages: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15989-Battery-System-Voltages-and-equivalent-power

    As for the battery charger terminology, there are different kinds of "deep cycle" batteries. The Marine/RV type aren't really suitable for renewable energy applications and are probably what the charger manufacturers are referring to when they use the term. Unless it says it does three stage (or four stage) charging it won't work well for RE.

    How are we doing so far?
  • ppz2012
    ppz2012 Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Hello again and thank you all.

    The answer of vtmaps makes me... hmmm... I don't know no the feeling. Am I wrong with my original setup ? I didn't purchase yet the batteries and it seems that AGM are not the best choice in my case.

    Ok, what's the alternative, keeping my budget in good sight ? Deep cycle batteries ? 6V or 12V. Hook them in parallel doesn't seem the right solution (...) but what is the best one, then ? I have some 12V DC devices to run so my first idea or running 12V batteries. For the rest, common computer devices (laptop, laser printer, sometimes desktops for a limited time - repairs - and computerized accessories (120V AC) that needs a pure sine inverter.

    Sorry for the mistakes about amps, amphours, watthours and other units. Must learn a little bit ;-)

    If my (corrected) needs are ok, let's assume a daily consumption of 200 amphours under 12v (so, it is compatible with 2173 watthours : 200 x 12 = 2400), so everybody, including me (...) agrees to that fact, what are my choices now ?

    I don't want to take all your time here, but feel free (I'll browse other sections of this forum too) to submit some alternatives : batteries and wiring mainly.
    I don't want a professional optimized system, I need a system (even not the best one) to give me the ability to work for few years. If my business goes better, I'll certainly upgrade it !

    Regards,
    Mike
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    One of the most confusing aspects of this stuff is that there is always more than one way to do it!

    First a note on battery capacity: if your loads will use 200 Amp hours your battery bank needs to be larger than that to avoid be too deeply discharged before recharging takes place. If you take batteries down too low too often they stop recharging too soon. In general 50% depth of discharge is the maximum you want to use on a regular basis. So your 200 Amp hour loads requirement becomes a need for at least 400 Amp hours of battery.

    AGM's are not a good choice to start with because they cost more for the amount of power than flooded cells and they are less tolerant of mistakes. The kind of mistakes that seem inevitable the first time you put a system together. Deep cycle 6 Volts of the "golf cart" variety (aka T105 or GC2) are usually your best bargain here, especially if you can get them from a warehouse store like Costco (never seen them at a B.C. Costco). These usually have a capacity of 220 Amp hours or so. On a 12 Volt system you'd need four for that load requirement, and would thus inevitably have two parallel strings of batteries. The same four in series would provide the equivalent power @ 24 Volts in one string.

    Your 12 Volt loads could be run from a 12 Volt system, a separate 12 Volt battery recharged on its own, a DC to DC converter from a higher Voltage battery bank, or AC step-down from the inverter and converted to DC. Like I said; more than one way to do it.

    Feel free to ask questions; we're here to answer. :D
  • ppz2012
    ppz2012 Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Hi again !

    So your 200 Amp hour loads requirement becomes a need for at least 400 Amp hours of battery.

    AGM's are not a good choice to start...

    Deep cycle 6 Volts of the "golf cart" variety (aka T105 or GC2)...
    The same four in series would provide the equivalent power @ 24 Volts in one string.

    Your 12 Volt loads could be run from a 12 Volt system, a separate 12 Volt battery recharged on its own, a DC to DC converter from a higher Voltage battery bank, or AC step-down from the inverter and converted to DC. Like I said; more than one way to do it.

    Many thanks for that info !

    So, If I understand well, bye bye AGM 12 batteries, my best choice are golf cart 6V in series.
    But in that case, is the improvement (durability mainly) a BIG Plus or is it a "purist" point of view (don't want to bother anybody here, just a true question from a non specialist) ?
    In other words, if I need to manage 200 ampshours (thus taking batteries to provide 400-500 ampshours), 12V AGM (or golfkart) batteries will give me a "lot" of troubles, really ? Or vanish my money into early waste ?

    I have a regular pure sine 12V inverter, should I purchase a new one (24V-110 or dual voltage ?) ? Or add another device (6V to 12V converter for high amps) before using the converted current ?
    Or take power from (only) 2 batteries to take 12V from the batteries (sound silly, but question is in my head) ?

    and what about the charger ? a 120 AC to 24 DC 50-60 amps will be ok ?

    Last but not least... I've searched about 6V deep cycle batteries... I found refurbished (aka deep recycled) forklift batteries (heavy, pricey but anything-proof), is a good choice or should I go to new batteries only ? about the ampshour, should I check the 5hours or 20h info ?

    Thanks +++ for your accurate replies
    Mike

    Can you explain me further about the steps to follow to obtain usable DC 12V and usable AC 120V ?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Problems with AGM batteries: more money for the amount of stored power, unforgiving of mistakes. Putting several batteries of any sort in parallel to increase capacity creates problems with keeping them evenly charged. It's not a purist thing, it's a "get the most performance for the money" thing. :D

    Here's a link to Samlex inverters, some of the least expensive, which include 24 Volt versions from 300 to 2000 Watts: http://www.solar-electric.com/stalun.html

    If sticking with 12 Volts is a necessity you can use two parallel strings of two 6 Volts for 440 Amp hours @ 12 Volts. More parallel connections than that and it gets more difficult to keep the current even.

    You do not want to take power from part of a battery bank for the same reason; those batteries will discharge more than the others and thus 'age' faster.

    Do you really want to cart a forklift battery around in your van? Even the small ones weigh about 500 lbs.

    Ultimately your system Voltage will depend on how much power you need at any one time and how many Watt hours you need to store up. Again your loads will determine this, and then the chosen battery bank Voltage/capacity will determine what is needed to recharge it and will help you select an inverter.
  • ppz2012
    ppz2012 Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Ok,

    I'm fine-tuning my needs :D

    4X 6V golf batteries like T-105 (260Ah each) will provide me 24V and about 260Ah of juice. Enough for one day at 50% discharge rate.

    a 24V DC / 120 AC pure sine inverter and a 120V AC / 24V DC charger (hmmm, how many amps for that purpose ?) and some #2 wires to connect everything and I'm on the road....

    Hmmm, should I use another 24V to 12V DC-DC converter for my 12v devices ? Or is a better solution (I suppose that using a 120V AC to 12V DC will the worst idea : double conversion meaning double energy wasting) ?

    Sound clever ?

    Mike
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    The GC2's are usually 220 Amp hours, not 260. One string @ 24 Volts would provide a maximum of about 2.5 kW hours AC, which is quite good.

    As a rule you want your charge rate to be between 5 and 15 percent of the capacity of the bank, or around 22 Amps peak (10% is a good middle-of-the-road figure).
    Some inverters have built-in chargers, but they tend to be more expensive than a standard inverter + charger because they include other features as well.

    If your battery bank is at 24 Volts and you want to run some 12 Volt loads you need a 24 to 12 Volt converter. 6 Volts doesn't enter in to the formula except as the single battery unit Voltage. A thing like this (but not necessarily this one): http://www.solar-electric.com/12to24or24to.html

    You can run the 12 Volt things from 120 VAC out of the inverter if you have the appropriate power supplies. It may be less efficient technically, but it can be simpler.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Here is where rules of thumbs meets the road...

    First, what are your real loads and operation conditions going to be like?

    Will you be operating for 24 hours on battery, or will it be more of a mix of 2 hours on battery, drive an hour, another 3 hours on battery, etc. (such as a traveling large animal vet).

    Next, why are you looking for battery usage? Many times, a small Honda eu1000i (900 watt) or eu200i (1,600 watt max) class generator will be very cost effective. You can get 4-~10 hours of run time per gallon of fuel, they are quiet and small (easy to move from van to a work site), and can run 2,000 to 6,000 hours with good maintenance (i.e., oil changes per manual, good fuel, etc.).

    And for portable applications, some times the 50% maximum discharge rule of thumb is not practical. For example, good batteries will support an 80% discharge, just with fewer cycles (maybe 500 deep discharge cycles vs 1,500-2,000 shallower cycles). But if your battery volume/weight is almost 1/2--Then that may be a reasonable trade off.

    Also--AGM vs Flooded cell... AGM's can have very high surge current ratings... If you need to start a pump etc. for a short period of time, AGM's can support those very high currents--Where it would take a much more massive flooded cell bank to have similar power delivery characteristics.

    If you are concerned about costs, then flooded cell golf cart batteries are some of the best deals out there (new). They are cheap because they are used in high volume. They are a bit messy (like all flooded cell batteries), forgiving if over charged (you can add water, can't do that with AGM), and good "training batteries". Pretty much everyone here has either damaged their first set or two of batteries (poor maintenance, over/under charging, loads left on for a few days, guests plugged in hair driers-turned on all the lights-took long showers--and killed the battery bank). Also, if you don't know what you really need--You can get the minimum amount of "golf cart" class batteries and run them for a few months to a couple years--Then replace them with better/bigger/smaller/different batteries have you have learned more about your needs.

    To a degree--You can even do this with a generator for a few weeks/months... Just get a Kill-a-Watt class meter (some have batteries for backup memory, others reset back to zero when AC power is removed) and log your usage (by session, by day, etc.--What ever makes sense) and get a detailed usage of your real power. Then design the battery bank/charging resources need to meet those needs (and the genset still may be your backup power source anyway--so it is not a waste of money either).

    There are a hundred different ways of addressing your needs. Some may be more cost effective, others may be more reliable, and others yet may not fit in your vehicle--so won't work anyway.

    There are the "different" chemistry batteries out there too--NiCad (still used a lot in aviation), and the upstart Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries; LFP; LiFePO4 (expensive, lightweight, very interesting features--but you need to know what you are doing).

    The end result is a 50% cycling 450 AH 12 volt golf cart battery bank is going to weigh around 268 lbs (plus weight/space for inverter, charge controller, wiring, etc.) and run your loads for ~1-2 days before recharging. A Honda eu2000i (1,600 watt) generator is going to weigh around 50 lbs and run your loads on ~1 gallon of gas per day (or a bit less).

    There are other things you can do too... You can run off the battery bank for smaller loads/quiet time, and the generator for heavier loads and/or when the genset will not cause issues with your usage (fumes, noise, etc.).

    Again, I am not trying to say I have all the answers (obviously, I do not)--But I really still am not sure I understand your needs to where I can even give you a better answer (I may have missed some important parts--Like will you be able to recharge "back at home" (or at a camp ground, etc.) from utility power at the end of the day.

    You are not camping (I think)... This sounds more like a work related vehicle or remote education, etc. type application--So what happens "at the end of the day"?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ppz2012
    ppz2012 Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: batteries bank, inverter and charger for my chevy

    Thanks again for your time ! This forum is full of interesting facts and opinions about "portable power"...

    After reading this, discussing, thinking, and a lot of mixed ideas, I'll purchase a bank of 6V deep-cycle batteries, probably T-145. I like the idea of 24V, I don't care of weight and I have enough room in my truck. Bye bye AGM's :-)

    About the generator, even it's a good idea (about power, size, and so on), but I can't put this outside my truck. I'm always running the truck in the city and I don't want thiefs around me.

    I'll maybe purchase a set of 2 banks (8 batteries, 2 separated banks of 24V) to obtain a reserve (and balance the weight in the side of the truck) and use each bank, depending of the load/days to obtain an electrical balance and because I'll probably put some led advertisement on the truck itself.

    Anyway, I keep the generator idea in some hidden space of my brain. Question : is it allowed to DRIVE with a running generator or should the truck be parked to use it ?

    For your last questions : it's a computerized truck (computers, DVR's) and I can charge it everyday, at home, or maybe (must find the right answer about voltage, connectors, etc) charge the batteries, if needed, on some public charging stations placed in some strategic places where I live (Montreal) :

    http://media.hydroquebec.com/en/communiques/communique/electric-circuit-first-public-charging-stations-in-service

    Mike