New SW Plus 5548

ChrisOlson
ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
While everybody else was wasting their time going to the polls and voting for the next train wreck, I spent my time wisely and installed a new inverter for our home today.

Got a new SW Plus 5548, brand new still in the box. But not from the eBay dude where I had found some. I got it from an authorized Xantrex/Schneider Electric dealer that had it in stock - with an approved factory 2 year warranty on it, complete with all the paperwork. Traded our almost 2 year old SW Plus 4024's, plus the T240 Xantrex transformer, even trade. This is a 120 volt inverter so I got a Outback PSX-240 Autotransformer for it. The Outback PSX-240 is much heavier duty than our T240 was - the Outback is rated 6 kVA continuous output and weighs about 50 lbs.

This setup is more power efficient than stacked inverters and has a couple advantages over a split phase inverter - one is zero problems with leg balancing for 120 volt loads. We rewired our panels and got a 120 volt Load Center and a 240 volt Load Center now.

The 120V Load Center is a 100 amp panel and is fed by the inverter. The 120V Load Center feeds the 240V Load center thru the transformer. There is a 30 amp two-pole breaker in the 120V Load Center that feeds the transformer - one leg from that 30 amp two-pole breaker is pass-thru directly to the 240V Load Center. The other leg from that breaker feeds the transformer input. The transformer generates the other leg of the 240V split phase and sends it to the 240V Load Center.

The idle consumption on the transformer is only 10 watts - less than half of what an idling inverter uses in a stacked configuration. And because all loads are fed from one source, there is zero leg balancing issues like you have with a split-phase inverter (or stacked inverters), even with imbalance on the 240V Load Center legs.

So this is something I've been mulling over for quite some time simply because stacked inverters are a power hog when you have to have both of them running 24/7 with a balancing transformer for the 120V loads. The idle consumption of the whole system was about 60 watts, and the running losses pretty much corresponded with that. The idle consumption of our new setup is only 30 watts and the operating efficiency at our normal 300-1,000 watt average loads is about 94% instead of in the high 80's from running two inverters off the peak of their efficiency curves.

This is the autotransformer - the wire nut connection is made on AWG 6 wire that passes thru to the 240V Load Center and the other leg goes thru the transformer so it can generate a sine wave that's 180 degrees out of phase with the pass-thru leg. The PSX-240 was about 450 bucks with shipping cost on it:

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The SW Plus 5548 slid right in - didn't even have to remove the ACCB from the wall for the bottom inverter.:

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And it delivers the goods. Full load test, with generator support, with every switch in the house that we could find turned on for 30 minutes:

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Now I have to change my sig because our battery bank is only 1,200 amp-hours now after rewiring it 48 volt :cry:
--
Chris
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Comments

  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    Looks like a nice setup Chris. I've got 2 T240's in my system, one 240->120 reducing utility or generator voltage for SW4048, one 120->240 for the minisplit heat pump load. Since both are not in an 'always on' configuration I don't think the OUtback auto transformer would save me much. My shop is all on utility except for one outlet backfed from the house for emergencies/lighting.

    For charging the T240 is not even maxed out, with full charge going the loads in the house don't put it at the 4kv rating. The SW4048 is limited to 35amps ac in split between charge and loads. My big 10kw diesel genset is now the dumbest you can imagine. A 3 cylinder diesel spinning the alternator, shut off is via fuel starvation. The engine control module will start the beast, but after a minute will shut it down if left to it's own devices. Solution: Go to garage, flip breakers from utility to generator, start generator. Shut down: shut off manual switch on generator (if not done as rpm's drop it will try to start again...grinding starter motor and ring gear:cry:) then cut fuel off to engine, reset breakers. A few more steps than before, but not onerous. A new ECM would be many hundreds of dollars. It will be required if the Manual setting quits too.

    Ralph
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #3
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    The T240, for us, is just a little too small. My wife's clothes dryer is 4.9 kVA and the T240 would only handle it for a little bit and then it overheats. The PSX-240 handles it with no problem. I tried this setup with a single 4024 and decided it was more efficient than stacked inverters. But the 4024 was also a little too small. This 5548 handles everything with no problem at all.

    It's just my opinion, but I think the split phase inverters (like XW's or the Radian) are good for grid tie applications where you want the inverter to tie in to the existing 240 volt system. But I decided for off-grid that the 120 volt is better, and use a transformer on it for the 240 volt loads. We don't run 240 volt stuff off-grid all the time - those loads are very intermittent. So running a dual inverter (either split phase internally) or stacked inverters for off-grid runs a lot of extra equipment that does not need to be running 24/7.

    And the other issue is leg balancing with a split phase system. This is an example of why you need a balancing transformer - say your wife is cooking Thanksgiving dinner for all the kids and grandkids that are coming over. She turns on a high draw 120 volt appliance in the kitchen (like a slow cooker set on HI to cook some hotdish). This places a big load on one leg of the split phase - say it's 1,500 watts. Now she turns the range oven on to put the turkey in it. The range oven draws 16.65 amps @ 240 volt (4,000 watts). You now have one leg of the split phase with 3,500 watt load on it, and the other with 2,000 watt load. Now she runs some water to boil potatoes on the induction cooktop. The well pump starts and pulls 1,600 watts. Now you got one inverter with 4,300 watts load and the other with 2,800 watt load on it. With dual 4024's one is running overloaded, and even with generator support being used to run these loads, the legs on the generator aren't balanced, which is not good for the generator.

    That's why you need a balancing transformer in step down to balance the legs so both inverters can share those heavy 120 volt loads evenly and prevent inverter overload or gen leg imbalance. With utility power, the transformer don't really care. But inverters and generators do care because they don't have virtually unlimited capacity like a utility transformer does.

    The single 120 volt inverter with a big transformer automatically "fixes" the leg imbalance problem because there is only one high-amperage power source being used to power it all, with part of that power source being transformed to the other leg of the split phase for the 240 volt stuff.

    I guess it's all a live and learn type deal and I didn't find out a lot of these things until we got our previous system. It's a shame Xantrex had to stop building these big 5548's I think, and has gone to split phase inverters. For off-grid power these big 120 volt inverters have a valid application. Even Outback quit making the PSX-240 and all they offer anymore is the bare transformer rated at 4 kVA.

    It's getting harder and harder to find hard-core off-grid equipment because all the companies have gone to building hybrid stuff for grid-tie.
    --
    Chris
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    chris,
    don't forget that although the inverters were never sold let alone used before and that they are not new. the parts inside still age. they may still work fine for you for years, but i would not expect them to last as long as they could've if purchased soon after manufacture. also many of these parts are obsolete now.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    I got a two year warranty on it from Schneider Electric. The only downside is that if it ever needs repair it has to be sent in to Schneider down in Illinois and they cannot send out a warranty replacement unit. The guy I got it from has been servicing and installing SW-series inverters for almost 20 years. He told me to run it at light loads for about two hours after installation so the stuff in it gets warmed up and all the capacitors get reformed. Then he said to find something to load it maximum rated load and run it at max for 30 minutes, reducing the gen support amps until the inverter itself has to carry it's full rated load.

    That's what I did. We turned on all our stuff and I turned the gen input amps down until the inverter was putting out 46 amps of the load.

    He told me that if it passes the max load test for 30 minutes that it will never have a warranty issue. He said there's either something wrong with it from the factory, or there's not. And the full load test for an extended time will weed out the ones that might have a problem. He told me if it passes that test that it cannot be broken.

    I also got a brand new Xantrex ICM/25 Remote Control Panel for it, with a 25 foot cord, so we can have the inverter controls mounted on our kitchen wall alongside the cupboard right above our MidNite Solar Battery Capacity Meter. And no longer have to walk out to the utility room to start the generator or look at inverter settings, load amps, etc.. How cool is that?
    --
    Chris
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    Attachment not found.


    I have four of them.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    If I would've known that, I wouldn't have even bothered with an inverter. I could just fire up my little excavator and trench a conduit in over to your place :D
    --
    Chris
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    Sort of an old thread now. But I think folks like to hear about stuff that works too. We had an early Thanksgiving dinner today because our daughter was here from Illinois. Our new SW Plus 5548 passed what I will call the "Thanksgiving Dinner Test" with flying colors. Our home is totally electric, including the 240 volt range, so the Thanksgiving Dinner Test is big.

    You can test stuff in a lab, or try to simulate real world conditions for testing. But there is nothing that can put the test to equipment like a woman.

    My wife cooked turkey in the oven at 350 degrees for two hours, and while that was happening she's preparing the rest of the food. At T minus 30 minutes there's all this other food she has ready to cook, including a big dish of corn in the microwave, dressing, vegetables and a 2 gallon stainless steel container full of potatoes on the induction cooktop, plus the coffee maker all primed up and ready to throw the switch.

    Then she makes the "loop" around the kitchen.
    All four "burners" on the induction cooktop to Full Burn. Check.
    Microwave on Full Radiation. Check.
    Coffee maker on Max Brew. Check.

    Now the inverter had been handling the convection oven very nicely for two hours. But in the 30 seconds it took my wife to enable Maximum Energy Consumption Mode it made that 5548 get right up out of its easy chair and go to work. I saw 77 amps load on the ICM on the kitchen wall. The status light was on and the generator had started within the first six seconds of Maximum Energy Consumption Mode. But it took it 30-40 seconds to get the gen to full load to help out with all this. But the inverter and generator handled it all over the next 30 minutes with not even a single flicker in the lights in the house.

    I swear - they do not build inverters like that anymore. I am VERY happy with it.
    --
    Chris
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    chris,
    glad it's working for you. you're right that there's nothing like a woman's ability to give any system a full stress use. it isn't just their husbands they stress. my car can verify this.:p
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    Like to have a new SW Plus 5548 as a spare. If anyone knows of one let me know. Good find Chris.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    The fellow on eBay has 4 of them left. I didn't buy ours from there but I did buy a ICM/25 remote panel from the eBay guy. He is an authorized Schneider Distributor. He wants 2,500 bucks for one and the shipping is free. I paid 3,200 bucks where I found ours at a local dealer, but I ended up trading in our 4024's on it.

    These are the four that are left from the Ebay guy - he had 10 of them originally:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Xantrex-SW-PLUS-5-5-KW-Inverter-Charger-Pure-Sine-Wave-Off-Grid-NEW/271067957427?ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1&ih=017&category=41980&cmd=ViewItem

    --
    Chris
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    Thank you Chris!
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    Jeff at Schneider Customer Support told me that the only caveat with these is that they have to be sent to their facility in Illinois for warranty repair if ever needed. They cannot do field repair on them anymore. But Jeff told me that the chances one will ever need warranty repair is very slim because in his words "they are the most rugged inverter ever built".

    Last summer when we started looking at this, I had also found two brand new ones in the warehouse at one of the large solar outfits in California. I think it was Wholesale Solar. I called and talked to them but they also wanted 3,200 bucks for one and the shipping cost was horrendous. Initially they didn't know if they had them still there. But they called me back after about an hour and said they were still in stock. They had the full shebang in the warehouse - inverter, mounting plates, GSM, ACCB, DCCB, ICM/25 remote, and even an ALM if I wanted one.
    --
    Chris
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    We operate in some pretty hostile conditions but so far so good, 7 years and counting.

    I had planned to replace all four of ours at 10 years and was concerned if I lost one in the meantime and couldn't get parts I'd face four new ones right away but this way offers a little insurance. Our solar guys thought replacing ours at 10 years was a little early but SW Plus 5548 units are getting scarce. Awhile back Schneider told me the transformers are no longer available but the mother boards are. Not sure if that's really the case.

    Thanks Chris for the heads up. I went online to EBay and bought a Xantrex SW Plus 5548 as a spare.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    The guy I talked to at Schneider never really said what they got for parts but he said they could fix anything in one if it was at their facility. According to him, short of a lightening strike blowing one up the chances of having a problem are about nil. They said to hook it up and let it run at at idle to very light load for a day to let the capacitors in it "reform" (whatever that is) after sitting around for so long without being used. Then put the full load stress test to it for at least 30 minutes. He said if it survives that and shows no problems the chances that it has a factory defect are pretty slim, so it's "good to go" and just run it.
    --
    Chris
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    The four of ours have run 24/7 since they were installed in 2005.
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #17
    Re: New SW Plus 5548

    Yes, I was just saying what they said to do with the new one you ordered. The one you bought is NIB and therefore has been sitting around about at least 7 years. The guy told me the capacitors can have a problem after that long and they need to be "reformed" by powering it up and leaving it idle to very light loads for at least 24 hours before putting it in normal off-grid service.
    --
    Chris
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