Generator Cold Weather Preheater

ChrisOlson
ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
I put this heat lamp in the generator enclosure, shining on the cylinder head and carb on our Honda:

Attachment not found.

It was only 14 degrees here last night and I tested it this morning. I plugged it in at 5:00 AM and test started the generator at 7:00. Before I started the generator I took the service cover off the enclosure and felt of the engine - even the block had warmed up - aluminum transfers heat really well. It's just a 75 watt heat lamp. I started the generator and it fired up just like Summer and didn't even stumble.

When it gets down below zero I'll probably just plug it in and leave it on.

It might be the ultimate in Wisconsin Northwoods Crude - but it works. ;)
--
Chris
· Share on Twitter

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    They make these little glue-on heaters for small engines: http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/Winter-Driving/WinterAutomotive/PRD~0300004P/Polar+Pad+Engine+Heater%2C+125W.jsp?locale=en

    But I'll bet your heat lamp solution is cheaper and more effective. :D
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    In the old days I used a home made version of a Zodi tent heater. I don't have the problem now, as the Honda EU lives inside so even t -40 it fires right up. In the real old days, I would drain the oil and out it on the stove to warm, but I really need to fire the genny.

    http://www.zodi.com/Consumer/zodihotventhp.html

    Tony

    PS 14f is barely cool!

    PPS I have a oil pan heater on my truck. (big one, 750 watts) when I really need it, fire the genny and the pan heater for about an hour, and it starts right up.
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    The holder and reflector was $6.99 at Farm & Fleet, and the bulb was $3.89 ;)

    They had those little glue-on heaters there too. They had a small KAT's 50 watt one that would've fit on the flat part of the block right underneath the cylinder. But then I got to thinking that it's really as important to warm up the carb as it is the engine itself. That iGX electronically controlled engine has a temp sensor on it and it chokes the engine according to what that temp sensor thinks. I think it actually chokes it too much when it's really cold because it will stumble and smoke for 20-30 seconds before it fully opens the choke and it straightens out.

    So I opted for the heat lamp. That heat lamp gives off a LOT of heat and it warms a pretty big area. It test started this morning by just barely bumping the starter and it came right up to speed without a single stumble with the carb warmed up. So I think it will work pretty good, and it don't take much power to run it - only 1.8 kWh if we leave the lamp on 24 hours a day in really cold weather.

    I mounted it to a little piece of plywood that I screwed to the bottom of the enclosure and got it fairly close to the engine, but it's still about 2" away and not touching so vibration won't ruin the bulb.

    My wife always has to see what I'm doing and when I was putting it in yesterday she got down on her hands and knees and looked in there to check it out. She thought it was a pretty good idea too. When I plugged it in this morning it was still dark outside and you can see the light thru the air intake screens for the ventilation fan. My wife was standing by the kitchen window with her cup of coffee and she saw that. She says, "Our generator has a soft romantic glow." LOL!
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater
    icarus wrote: »
    In the old days I used a home made version of a Zodi tent heater.
    PS 14f is barely cool!

    Wow! That Zodi is 20,000 BTU. I don't think the engine in our generator gives off that much heat!

    It was really cold here the last two days. Never got above 22 degrees F yesterday. And it's only November. Gun deer season opens on Saturday morning. I remember several years when I went out on opening day when it was -10 F and never got above zero all day. So 22 degrees must be the effects of Global Warming :confused:
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    I think they make a smaller version, and you can turn it down I think. At 20k BTUs it will run better than 3 hours on a galleon of LP. I would think at half throttle, 1 hour would warm nearly any engine enough to safely start (assuming an insulated enclosure).

    I know the excess RE so you light bulb or pan heater is probably a better ER, but for those that don't have he RE, the LP in lieu of the electric heat might be an advantge.

    T

    PS. Like I thought, he is the smaller one, 10k BTUs .

    http://www.zodi.com/Consumer/zodihotvent.html
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    While I don't know if it's the Zodi brand I have seen those type of heaters in use at airports. They use them to preheat piston engines, and also the aircraft's cabin.

    I have a 50,000 BTU space heater that burns #2 diesel fuel too. The difference is that the space heater does not have "clean" heat while the Zodi does.
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    Chris it would be interesting to see just how short a time of preheating is needed to allow the gen to start, easily, on cold temps. I know about 2 hrs plus on a 'flow through or plug in block heater is all that is needed for a (standard) 351 ford v8 @ -20 F.
    ps so far my eu3000 starts easily at -10*C after sitting a week without running...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
    · Share on Twitter
  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    Nice setup Chris. Do you really need that much bulb do you think? If you leave it on 24/7 maybe just a 60 watt incandescent bulb would do.

    West...I think Chris keeps the gen ready to fire all the time for generator support mode with all the 240v loads (or do you still need to do that?)

    Ralph
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    Next step: wire in a thermostat so no energy is wasted heating above the minimum necessary temp. :D
    · Share on Twitter
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater
    icarus wrote: »
    In the old days I used a home made version of a Zodi tent heater. I don't have the problem now, as the Honda EU lives inside so even t -40 it fires right up. In the real old days, I would drain the oil and out it on the stove to warm, but I really need to fire the genny.
    http://www.zodi.com/Consumer/zodihotventhp.html

    I don't think they've manufactured or sold those zodi heaters for several years. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #12
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Next step: wire in a thermostat so no energy is wasted heating above the minimum necessary temp. :D

    'coot and I have the same idea. I'm trying to find a suitable thermostat to turn the light on when it gets down to 15 degrees F in the enclosure. The Suncourt DuctStat like I used for the ventilation fan won't work because the temp settings don't go low enough on it.

    I think 2 hours even at -30F will do fine with the Honda iGX270. At 14 degrees F and two hours the engine was nice and warm - even the block had warmed up enough to feel that it was warm on the opposite side from the heat lamp. I think the fins on the head and cylinder absorb heat as well as they dissipate it. and it transfers really good thru the aluminum block.

    Ralph, I don't think a smaller bulb would achieve the desired result and save much energy. The heat lamp I got is only 75 watts and it gets hot enough to burn your hand only 1" away from it. Meanwhile the backside of the bulb is cool because it has a shiny reflector in there to direct and concentrate the infrared light spectrum to the thing it's heating. To try to get that concentrated heat in the direction you want it, I think, would be hard with a conventional bulb.

    Using a timed pre-heat before starting to save energy isn't going to really work that well for us because we use our generator for Load Start amps. On Load Start it is required to start and be online at full load within 30 seconds at virtually any time. These are the settings we have for Load Start:

    Attachment not found.

    Attachment not found.

    Attachment not found.

    So I think any time it's below 15 degrees F I would like to have the generator preheated and ready to run, and I think the Honda engine will be a lot happier if it's warm when it has to deliver its full prime rating within 20-30 seconds after starting up. It's only 1.8 kW/day to run that heat lamp bulb around the clock, and that's not really that much power for us in the big picture to have a toasty warm generator ready to go, on demand, any time we need it.

    I finally got the ICM/25 Remote installed for our new inverter yesterday too. No longer have to go out to the utility room - it's in the kitchen where it's nice and warm when it's below freezing in the utility room :D

    Attachment not found.

    The above installation got me into a little trouble, but not too bad. My wife looked at it and she says, "If you can hide the wires for that thing why can't you hide the wires for the other one too?" I gave her my most innocent look and said, "How many holes you want thru the wall?"
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    Maybe a block heater thermostat thing like this? http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/6/Tools/2/Electrical/ProgThermostats/PRD~0522463P/NOMA+Block+Heater+Cord.jsp?locale=en
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #14
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    That is perfect! It says it comes on -10C, which is 14 degrees F. Exactly what I was looking for. I'm going to check to see if the local NAPA or CarQuest store carries those, or can order one.

    Thanks!
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    You could also buy a "winter watchman" a simple on-off tstat, plugs into a 120 VC outlet, and then you plug your lamp, or heat tape or wht ever into it,, auteur $10 IIRC.

    http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-S483B1002-Winter-Watchman-Warning/dp/B00097267E

    It doesn't get very good reviews, but I have used them for hers for simple applications. You could also by a single pole tstat from grainier and hard wire it.

    Tony

    PS. I think VTmaps has it right, they don't seem to be available anymore,, too bad.

    I still use the Zodi stove top water heating system once in a while.

    T
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #16
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    The trouble with most of them is that they are not adjustable to a low enough temperature. I used this DuctStat for the ventilation fan and it works really good, but only goes down to 40 degrees:
    http://www.suncourt.com/Suncourt%20DuctStat.html

    That one that 'coot pointed out comes on at exactly the right temp. Hopefully somebody in the US carries them, or something similar.
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    I have looked and can't find a similar product in the states. (search grainger, I think you should be able to find be thaqt goes to 0f)

    I think that NOMA is an in house Canadian tire brand. Perhaps one of our fellow Canadians can get one and mail it to you. I would, but I am in the states myself, and will be for a while.

    Tony
    · Share on Twitter
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    I don't believe it!.... we can get something not available in the states. wow, the shoe must be on the other foot:roll::cry:
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #19
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    Thanks Tony! I'll let you know if I can't find one. And if I can't we'll get one here from Thunder Bay thru Ryden's Border Store. I'm hoping the local Carquest or NAPA stores might carry them, or something similar. It seems like a novel idea for saving energy used by engine heaters. But unfortunately, saving energy is something that most US citizens are not very good at :cry:
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    I can't seem to find them with NAPA.

    Let me know,

    T
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #21
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    I think I may have found one! It says that the Menards store only 24 miles from us has this one in stock:
    http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/safety-security/timers/block-heater-timer-with-temperature-control/p-1858552-c-6471.htm

    I always tend to think of Menards as building materials, plumbing and electrical. But they got a lot of just plain "stuff" too ;)

    At any rate it says it turns on 14 degrees and has programmable on/off time.

    Thinking about it, I think I could eliminate keeping the generator preheated 24 hours a day because the generator never, in the two years since we put in our new battery bank, has ever run after 8:00 at night until about 7:00 in the morning. The only time it will run that early in the morning is if we had a "bad" power day so the bank is hanging about 70% SOC at sundown, and the wind is not blowing so the turbines don't hold the bank up during the night. We get up and make breakfast, which uses a lot of power (coffee maker, induction cooktop, toaster, etc..) That will make the generator start around 7:00 AM sometimes.

    Our inverter has what is called "Quiet Time" in it for the generator. I could program that so the generator will never try to start from 8:00 PM to 7:00 AM. And set this pre-heat timer to turn the heat lamp on at 5:00 AM (for two hours of preheat in the event the generator wants to start at 7:00 AM), and turn the lamp off at 7:00 PM. And it would only turn it on if the temp in the gen enclosure got below 14 degrees F, and it would turn it off if the temp in there gets above 19 degrees F.

    In theory, this would save running the heat lamp for 10 hours per day.
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    I should have thought about Menards,,

    I also would consider a small oil pan heater (I into you have the light) but for ~$35 from NAPA I think you would get way more heat into the engine for your KWH. 50 or 100 watts. I know you are concerned about getting the carb warm, but I have found with my truck, 2 hours the heat in the oil warms the entire engine to a pretty warm temp, assuming no wind. If your genny enclosure is pretty free from wind my guess is you could reduce your run time considerbly. You might also consider a tsat in the oil. For example a tsat with a remote bulb sensor (coupled with the timer you found above) from Grainger.

    Not criticizing, just thinking randomly this evening.

    Tony
    Tony
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    There's only one suitable place to put a silicon pad heater on the block, and that's a flat pad right under the cylinder that's above the oil level in the crankcase. On the other side of the engine they have the externally serviceable oil alert switch, and that thing has about the same bolt pattern as a Chevy fuel pump. On the bottom, the engine's case is cast with webs in it so there's no flat surface.

    That's why I came up with the heat lamp idea.
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    Chris! I had a bad experience with a heat lamp. I was very poor from bieing laid off and couldn,t afford a new battery. I put a heat lamp under the hood on my 66 pontiac to warm up the battery and went in the house for awhile. When I came out to see if the car would start the heatlamp had set the car on fire. solarvic
    · Share on Twitter
  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #25
    Re: Generator Cold Weather Preheater

    Indeed any heat source can cause a fire. However I think flameless heat sources are less likely to start a fire than something with fire actually already going in it. The 75 watt heat lamp I'm using gets things nice and warm, but not nearly to the temperatures that it gets to when the generator is operating. So I expect it to be fairly safe - at least as safe as a silicon pad heater.

    My wife also started a fire with a heat lamp once. She got some chicks to raise and had a heat lamp shining on them to keep them warm. They cannot tolerate cold at all with their fuzzy baby feathers. Somehow the lamp got tipped over and landed in some straw and set it on fire and burned the chicken coop up. We never rebuilt it or got any more chickens after that.
    --
    Chris
    · Share on Twitter

Categories