Generator Emission compliance standards.

solarvic
solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
How important is Emission compliance standards? Been saving to buy a Yamaha generator and watched a vidio from Yamaha. I surmise that the Emission compliance standards is the number of hours the generator is rated to run and still pass the standards. Yamaha rateing 500 hours, Honda 250 hours and most other brands including Generac and Briggs125 hours. Does the compliance standards pertain to how many total hours the generator would run? There is a dealer im Summerville, WVA that sells them with a tri fuel kit and hour meter already installed. http://www.yamaha-propane-natural-gas-generators.com/ Here is the address. Think I might buy the EF2800I model. Solarvic
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  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.

    Why are you worried about emmissions with a stationary generator?
    Shouldn't you be most conserned with fuel consumption and durability?

    If you are running propane or natural gas then you will be way ahead of the emmissions a gasoline generator puts out.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #3
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.

    I assume the thought is a higher Hour Rated generator should be designed to last longer...

    In California, stationary engines are being registered for emissions controls/replacement.

    Here is one website on the Mfg. side of the laws:

    http://www.bordercenter.org/chem/smallengines.cfm

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.
    oil pan 4 wrote: »
    If you are running propane or natural gas then you will be way ahead of the emmissions a gasoline generator puts out.

    I don't know that that's totally accurate. An engine designed to run on gasoline will be considerably less efficient on LP gas (>3% thermal efficiency loss), as an example, and HC emissions will be much higher on LPG. If you raise compression ratio to improve thermal efficiency and get the combustion temperatures back up where they should be with LPG, then NOx emissions increase.

    The only "silver bullet" in decreasing emissions in small engines is thermal efficiency, and with high thermal efficiencies NOx has to be dealt with because of the high pressures and combustion temperature it takes to achieve it. The higher the BTU input to get the same power output, the higher the emissions will be. LPG/NG is on the bottom for thermal efficiency, gasoline is somewhere in the middle, diesel is the best.

    LPG being a "clean" fuel is a red herring. Many people think that because the flame temp is lower with LPG when burned in a piston engine so the top piston ring and the oil carried on it is not exposed to high temperatures. Gasoline burns hotter and exposes the oil on the top ring to higher temps so the oil gets "dirty" looking faster. Diesel is hotter yet and the oil in a diesel turns pitch black within just a few hours of being changed because of the 1,000+ degree temps that the oil is exposed to on that top piston ring. But none of this is an indication of a "clean burning" fuel, or not, because diesel is by far the cleanest burning of the three and its main emissions component is particulates.
    --
    Chris
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.

    Along the lines of what Chris said:

    We have here in B.C. an "Air Care" program for vehicle emissions which requires regular testing of exhaust gases (on a dynamometer). We also have many vehicles that run on LPG. They are sometimes the toughest to get a "pass" on the test for exactly the reason he states. You have to feed more LP than you would gasoline, with resulting increased risk of unburned hydrocarbon emissions.

    Alcohol fuel would probably give the same result, despite the fact its emissions would be CO2 and H20; greater amount of fuel fed = more likely it doesn't all get burned. So it does come down to thermal efficiency, and gasoline is hard to beat there. The new Air Care requirements are to drop the testing of passenger vehicles and concentrate on diesel emissions. Diesels can have the same problem of unburned fuel and more often particle emissions.

    Back when I serviced John Deere equipment for my bread, we used to laugh at Allis-Chalmers stuff because of the black plumes that roared from the exhaust whenever they were pushed hard. The JD stuff didn't have that failing; better design. :D
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Back when I serviced John Deere equipment for my bread, we used to laugh at Allis-Chalmers stuff because of the black plumes that roared from the exhaust whenever they were pushed hard. The JD stuff didn't have that failing; better design. :D

    Yeah, but to the farmer there's nothing that gives more satisfaction than a 180XT on a 5 bottom plow blowing a thick, pitch black column of smoke to the sky :D

    --
    Chris
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  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.

    Good thing the OP doesn't have to put up with californias sillyness.
    Yet.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.
    BB. wrote: »
    I assume the thought is a higher Hour Rated generator should be designed to last longer.

    Yes Bill this was my thought was. In Pa. I don,t think I need to worry about the emissions like you do in California. I was thinking of buying the tri fuel generator
    from the address I posted to. They sell thier generators with the trifuel system installed for the same price that most Yamaha dealers sell the gasoline model for. They say on thier web site that the generator outputs the same watts on ng and propane as it will on gasoline. The reason I am thinking trifuel is I can use the free ng from my gas well and if the well goes dry I can switch to propane. I had propane before I got the gas well so all I would have to do is switch the jets on my furnace, cooking stove and get whatever I needed for the clothes dryer. Solarvic
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.

    Just as a general note, a bit off topic, but not ALL gas burning appliances can be converted from one fuel to the other, LP to Nat. Or Vise versa. In most cases it is a simple matter of changing orrifices and the out put of the pressure regulator. Some Rinnai space heaters can be converted for example, others not. Takagi demand water heaters cannot be changed, and I don't know about others.

    Tony
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Generator Emission compliance standards.
    icarus wrote: »
    Just as a general note, a bit off topic, but not ALL gas burning appliances can be converted from one fuel to the other, LP to Nat. Or Vise versa. In most cases it is a simple matter of changing orrifices and the out put of the pressure regulator. Some Rinnai space heaters can be converted for example, others not. Takagi demand water heaters cannot be changed, and I don't know about others.

    Tony

    The more complicated the burner and control design, such as a modulating burner for stable temperature in a demand water heater, the less likely that a simple single part change can allow you to use a different fuel. Propane delivery line pressures to the appliance need to be higher than for natural gas, and valves may not be able to work with either the pressure or the volume/flow-resistance requirements of a different fuel.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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