Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Bronson · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Update:

1. OK I'm back to Square One again

This past week, I purchased 2 Brand New Marine Batteries, the Biggest one I can find for the Money, LOL (Oh remember, it's a Simple 12V Lighting System... )

Oh, I got 2 Brand New more Panels... Rated: 140W, Voc 20.6V, Vop 17.3V, Short circuit current (Isc) 9.31A, Working current(Iop) 8.09A. I tested them both in direct Sunlight @ about 20-22V and @ 8A+.

Also, I got a 50A Solar Charge Controller (http://www.ebay.com/itm/50A-Solar-Charge-Controller-12V-24V-600W-1200W-Solar-Panel-CM5024Z-/150896006581?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23221a55b5)

Anyway, my ENTIRE usage for each nights is only about 28-30 AMPS ( @12.5V and also please remember this is for the entire night )

Each morning, BEFORE the Sun hit the Solar Panels HARD / DIRECTLY, like before Noon time... I get about 18-22 AMPS Reading on my Charger Controller.

When the SUN hits it, usually about 11:30AM - 3PM (Peak Time) The AMPS Reading on the Charger Controller FLUCTUATE again... I'm back to the same thing again.... This time it's NOT the Batteries because BOTH Batteries are Brand New.

It seems the Charger Controller Over Protection STOP charging the Batteries when the Voltage on the Charger Controller hit 14.5V or Higher...

Once a Cloud hit's the Panels and it goes under 14.5V or if I turn on my Loads... I see the AMPS on the Charger Controller go back to NORMAL...

This can't be NORMAL because from 11:30AM - 3PM are PEAK hours and these are the time that we needed most. If the Controller is FLUCTUATING and NOT / STOP giving the ENERGY / VOLTS / AMPS to the batteries, then what's the point for using Solar?

2. Another way I was thinking is to use a DC-DC 24V - 12V STEP DOWN on each Panel (I know, this cost Extra Money

)... that way I always get 12V going to the Controller and stop it from the Over Voltage Protection Mode from happening...

3. There is another way around this... What if I turn my System to a 24V DC, but if I do that... I will face another problem on the Controller Under Voltage Protection Mode

the Cut Off Voltage for 24V System on the Controller is 21V

. Then use a 24V DC Step Down to 12V DC to Power my 12V LED Lights...

It seems I can't WIN either way

Are there another way around this? Any input would be Greatful, thank you !!!

P.S. This is what I have:

2- 125W Solar Panels
2- 140W Solar Panels
1- 50A Solar Controller
2- Marine Batteries @135AMPSH Reserved

P.S.S

BTW, my OLD Battery was FINE, it was the METER that was BAD. I bought another Multi-Meter and I tested the old Battery and it was fine @ 12.7V

BB. · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Is this the manual for your charge controller (PDF download)?

Normally, the PWM charge controller should output the maximum current available from the solar array to the battery bank until the Absorb voltage it hit--Should be around 14.5 volts.

At that point, the charge controller should start reducing battery charging current to keep the voltage at 14.5 volts (ideally for ~2-4 hours or so). At that point you should see the battery current slowly drop from maximum array output to ~1-2% of the Battery Bank AH rating (around 2.7 to ~5 amps terminating current). At that point the charge controller should enter float mode and drop the voltage to ~13.6 volts until dark.

If you have loads, they should cause more current to flow from the solar panels (assuming there enough sunlight) to support both charging and your loads.

The only way I can see your charge controller STOP charging (no charging current) is if the HVD (High Voltage Disconnect) is turning off the panels (if the set point is really 27.5 or 13.75 volts--That is way too low. It should be set to ~14.9 or 15.0 volts for solar panel HVD).

But I am not really sure I understand this controller. HVD appears to almost the "float" voltage setpoint (at least in the manual I am looking at). There is no Absorb set voltage (should be ~14.5 volts).

-Bill

Bronson · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

BB. wrote: »

Is this the manual for your charge controller (PDF download)?
-Bill

Thank you, got it!

BB. wrote: »

Normally, the PWM charge controller should output the maximum current available from the solar array to the battery bank until the Absorb voltage it hit--Should be around 14.5 volts.
-Bill

Yes, that's what I thought it should do / happening.

BB. wrote: »

At that point, the charge controller should start reducing battery charging current to keep the voltage at 14.5 volts (ideally for ~2-4 hours or so). At that point you should see the battery current slowly drop from maximum array output to ~1-2% of the Battery Bank AH rating (around 2.7 to ~5 amps terminating current). At that point the charge controller should enter float mode and drop the voltage to ~13.6 volts until dark.
-Bill

Right again....

BB. wrote: »

If you have loads, they should cause more current to flow from the solar panels (assuming there enough sunlight) to support both charging and your loads.
-Bill

Right again...

BB. wrote: »

The only way I can see your charge controller STOP charging (no charging current) is if the HVD (High Voltage Disconnect) is turning off the panels (if the set point is really 27.5 or 13.75 volts--That is way too low. It should be set to ~14.9 or 15.0 volts for solar panel HVD).
-Bill

Since my System is a Simple 12V System, I tested both @ 14.5 - 15V. It's still doing the samething... Once it reaches the HVD setting, the Controller would just Fluctuate reguardless if the Batteries are Full or Not!

BB. wrote: »

But I am not really sure I understand this controller. HVD appears to almost the "float" voltage setpoint (at least in the manual I am looking at). There is no Absorb set voltage (should be ~14.5 volts).
-Bill

No "Float"

I have another old one PWM Charge Controller just like it, only Rated 30A and I also have a 30A MPPT Charge Controller. They all do the same thing... They all CUT-OFF @ the Setting Absorb Voltage

Right now it's 10:18AM EST the PWM is working right, NO FLUCTUATING.... It's 16-18 AMPS Per Hour @15V Absorb Setting. Everything seems NORMAL (Until Full Sun

@ 11:30 or 12PM...)

There has to be a way to get around this.... I need PEAK HOURS the most, just like everyone else

BB. · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

When you mean the current "cuts off" or "fluctuates"...

First, there is no load on the battery (should not matter, just trying to limit the variables)?

Next, when the battery hits 14.5 volts, the current from the charge controller drops to zero amps and stays there--Or does the current start dropping down significantly but not to zero?

Or, does the meter jump between Max and Zero continuously, but the battery voltage stays around 14.5 (no lower, no higher)?

If the last, then everything may be working OK. You have a PWM charge controller. They turn on/off to control "average" current. The do not actually reduce current (like turning a water faucet 1/2 on to limit flow, it is like slamming the faucet on/off -- one second on, one second off, repeat for and average of 1/2 flow rate).

Note, depending on the controller, the on/off cycle may be seconds, or 100's -1,000's of times a second. It is possible that your meter is "sampling" during the On/Off cycling... Sometimes reading off, sometimes reading on (most digital meters read a few times a second--so they just may display an instantaneous sample, not an "average").

As long as the battery averages 14.5 volts while the sun is up--It is charging properly. Just need the battery to see the "average" current and keep at 14.5 volts.

Have not seen a controller that just turns on at 14.4 volts or below, and off at 14.5 volts and above--But, it would be cheap/easy and could work (not that I see many controllers at all--I am not in the solar business).

And what are you reading the charging current with? Meter on charge controller, DMM, analog current meter, etc.?

-Bill

Cariboocoot · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Actually it sounds like you are using the LOAD terminals instead of the BATTERY terminals: if Voltage goes too high, the LOAD terminals will be disconnected to prevent damage to loads. Once it drops, they will reconnect. This does not appear to be adjustable on this controller (which looks like a copy of another brand; Steca).

Why you bought another set of marine batteries I don't know, since they aren't the right thing for this job. The charge controller looks pretty 'suspect' too.

Once again correct your terminology and say you use 30 Amp hours over night. How you are measuring this I still don't know as that controller won't. It claims to measure the accumulated Amp hours coming from the panels, which is not the same as what is going to the loads and frankly is of little use. If you are assuming you have 100% charge before the lights come on and start drawing power then replace 30 Amp hours the next day is the same as using 30 Amp hours over night you assume incorrectly. The battery may not be 100% to start with and the loads could use more than that. This gives you a deficit charging situation which eventually results in dead batteries.

Sometimes bargains aren't.

Can you turn on all your loads manually all at once and measure the total current draw? Then plan on that as the load for, say, 8 hours overnight (or a good average use). Then you can determine a proper battery bank size a get real deep cycle batteries. Once you know the capacity of the bank, a decent charge controller of the right size with enough panels behind it will keep them charged.

As it is you are guessing at loads and buying blindly. This leads to the endless frustration you are experiencing and that 'empty wallet' sensation.

Bronson · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Actually it sounds like you are using the LOAD terminals instead of the BATTERY terminals: if Voltage goes too high, the LOAD terminals will be disconnected to prevent damage to loads. Once it drops, they will reconnect. This does not appear to be adjustable on this controller (which looks like a copy of another brand; Steca).

Why you bought another set of marine batteries I don't know, since they aren't the right thing for this job. The charge controller looks pretty 'suspect' too.

Once again correct your terminology and say you use 30 Amp hours over night. How you are measuring this I still don't know as that controller won't. It claims to measure the accumulated Amp hours coming from the panels, which is not the same as what is going to the loads and frankly is of little use. If you are assuming you have 100% charge before the lights come on and start drawing power then replace 30 Amp hours the next day is the same as using 30 Amp hours over night you assume incorrectly. The battery may not be 100% to start with and the loads could use more than that. This gives you a deficit charging situation which eventually results in dead batteries.

Sometimes bargains aren't.

Can you turn on all your loads manually all at once and measure the total current draw? Then plan on that as the load for, say, 8 hours overnight (or a good average use). Then you can determine a proper battery bank size a get real deep cycle batteries. Once you know the capacity of the bank, a decent charge controller of the right size with enough panels behind it will keep them charged.

As it is you are guessing at loads and buying blindly. This leads to the endless frustration you are experiencing and that 'empty wallet' sensation.

Here is the PIX from the Manual in Slightly RED... It does Report Total AMPS usage/ Total AMPS Discharged .... Maybe yours do not, but this one does... Also, you are just ASSUMING of what I am doing, rather than trying to understand what I am doing or trying to figure out something... Reguardless of what or how I'm doing it, there is something wrong.

First, it's the Battery, now it's my Controller.....

Did you even Read what I'm trying to Type? or Terminology I use, I have 2 (Two) Controllers and 1 (One) MPPT Controller... It's still doing the same REGUARDLESS if I use the MPPT or PWM.

Also, if you read this Thread over, I did put in 28-30AMPS / Overnight / Entire Night usage everywhere... Blah Blah Blah.... Also, my System is 12V once again.... It's still 12.V @ 30 AMPS Usage Per Night. Like I said, It's NOT much energy usage at all... 12V @ 30A = 360Watts

In reality, with all my 4 Panels even ONLY at 100W @ 5AH each. I should get 20 AMPS Per Hour in FULL / DIRECT sunlight, that means in just two hours, I should replaced more than what I use PER NIGHT.

Imagine, most people wishes that the SUN shines 24 Hours a day to charge their System. Why can't I just have 2 hours of Direct Sunlight to charge my system and just get 30+ AMPS @ 12.5V per day.

As far as I know " Cariboocoot " I'm sorry but you can't help me

, but Thank you tho!

See Below...

Attachment not found.

Cariboocoot · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

What that shows is current. Not Amp hours. They are not the same thing or interchangeable. See the next frame to the right? It says "Accumulated charging power (Ah)". That "Ah" means Amp hours and is a record of how much power the panels have produced. It is not how much power you have used. Neither is "Load discharge current" which is only the amount of current flowing at the moment. Not power usage over time, which is what matters. It may record peak current, but again that is useless.

You are having trouble because you do not understand or use the terminology correctly.

Ignore the charge controllers completely; they are not giving you the information you need to determine how much power you are using.
You need to measure the Watt hours (or Amp hours since the Voltage is relatively fixed) the loads are using. That and that alone will tell you what size battery bank you need.
The size of the battery bank will determine how much panel and what capacity charge controller you need.

This is what I've said from the beginning. There is no other way of correcting the problem.

Bronson · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

See the next frame to the right? It says "Accumulated charging power (Ah)". That "Ah" means Amp hours and is a record of how much power the panels have produced.

YOU are CORRECT on this one, I color the wrong box!

Cariboocoot · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Bronson wrote: »

YOU are CORRECT on this one, I color the wrong box!

Well the one with the Amp hour designation is about the power accumulated by the solar panels, which is not the same thing as the power used by the loads. If the loads use more total power in one night than the solar panels (for whatever reason) can replenish during the day you are in a deficit charging state and this means the batteries just go down, down, down over time until they are dead. You can not rely on charge controller numbers to relate to load consumption, not even on the very expensive controllers. MY MX60 dutifully relays data on how many Watt hours it gets from the panels every day. Sometimes that number is less than 100, but the loads remain the same.

Bronson · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Well the one with the Amp hour designation is about the power accumulated by the solar panels, which is not the same thing as the power used by the loads. If the loads use more total power in one night than the solar panels (for whatever reason) can replenish during the day you are in a deficit charging state and this means the batteries just go down, down, down over time until they are dead. You can not rely on charge controller numbers to relate to load consumption, not even on the very expensive controllers. MY MX60 dutifully relays data on how many Watt hours it gets from the panels every day. Sometimes that number is less than 100, but the loads remain the same.

Yes, I understand this Fully!!!

What I have been trying to Explain all along is..... EVERYTHING is working FINE !!! But only in the Hours of 8AM -11:30AM and then... 3:30PM - about 5:30PM depend on the Sunset...

But from 11:31AM -3:29PM (Estimated Only) PEAK HOURS... This is when it's acting up, this is when I see a Problem.... The reason for this Problem as I see so far is... During the OFF PEAK HOURS... The Voltage NEVER goes above 14.9V although I set on the Controller @ 15V (MAXED).

Once the SUN hit the Panels FULL, this is where I see the VOLTS / AMPS on the Controller FLuctuate. Now the funny thing is... When the Sun passes the Panels after 3PM it's charging like it should again.

I think the only way for me to do is to get a DC - DC STEP DOWN... From 17V -24V DC to 12V DC, this way the Controller always get Constant Power and Prevent it from Fluctuating.

Although what I really need is a DC - DC STEP DOWN... From 17V -24V DC to 14.5V DC this way I get Extra Power and TRICK the Controller with Constant Power @ 14.5V

This is why I think it's strange that it shouldn't be this way... It should Charge the Batteries at the Setting Voltage until either the Batteries are Full or during Loads.

Guess i'm gonna have to do this on my own. Although I might NOT use the correct terms... But I'm smarter than this, I can figure it all out soon...

Thank you ALL !!!

Dill · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

it sounds to me like your batteries are full.

Cariboocoot · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Or buy a good charge controller?

That behaviour smacks of "shunt controller". A good controller of either PWM or MPPT type will hold the Voltage steady during Absorb and Float unless either the panels do not get proper sun or there are loads causing current draw above what they can handle. A shunt controller turns on and off over a wider Voltage spread and the difference is quite noticeable. Either of the other type you won't be able to see the controller pulses because they happen very rapidly.

The only other thing that needs mentioning is that if there is a great difference in panel Vmp to system Voltage this sort of pulsing can happen, but that does not appear to be the case here.

westbranch · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer about this problem?

Bronson · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

westbranch wrote: »

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer about this problem?

First, no the Batteries are NOT Full... How do I know this? Please read below

Also, it's charging again right now 4:36PM because the Sun is LOW and it's below 14.9V coming from the Panels...

"

What I have been trying to Explain all along is..... EVERYTHING is working FINE !!! But only in the Hours of 8AM -11:30AM and then... 3:30PM - about 5:30PM depend on the Sunset...

But from 11:31AM -3:29PM (Estimated Only) PEAK HOURS... This is when it's acting up, this is when I see a Problem.... The reason for this Problem as I see so far is... During the OFF PEAK HOURS... The Voltage NEVER goes above 14.9V although I set on the Controller @ 15V (MAXED).

Once the SUN hit the Panels FULL, this is where I see the VOLTS / AMPS on the Controller FLuctuate. Now the funny thing is... When the Sun passes the Panels after 3PM it's charging like it should again.

"

The Controller is working fine.... As far as I can see... Like I said, I need something to regulate the Voltage just below the CUT-OFF Voltage of 15V to FOOL the Controller.

Tonight, I'm gonna turn on my Loads for like 2 Hours extra (10AMPSH @12.5V*2H= 250Watts), just to drain the Batteries a little more... Then I'm gonna try using the MPPT Charger but instead coming out to the Batteries, its gonna go into the PWM instead. Since the MPPT can be Set at 14.5V, maybe the PWM Controller would think it's the Panels instead.

Although I don't know if this is a good idea, hey what the heck.... Worth trying....

I will report during and at the end of the day tomorrow. Wish me luck

Cariboocoot · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Feeding one charge controller from another probably isn't going to work because the input of the second controller is not going to look like batteries to the output of the first one.

You shouldn't be trying to charge 12 Volt batteries at 15 Volts anyway, unless they are Interstates (or some others that have very high Voltage charge requirements). 14.8 is high, and is what Trojan recommends for theirs. Most others only require 14.6 Volts.

It is possible the controller is shutting down midday because the panels' output exceeds its input maximums. Even some MPPT controllers will do this. Cheap ones.

Otherwise the Voltage should be brought up to 14.6 - 14.8 and held there for a given amount of time to complete the Absorb cycle and then drop back to Float level (around 13.8).

Good luck.

Bronson · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Feeding one charge controller from another probably isn't going to work because the input of the second controller is not going to look like batteries to the output of the first one.

LOL, that's what I thought, but worth a shot...

Cariboocoot wrote: »

You shouldn't be trying to charge 12 Volt batteries at 15 Volts anyway, unless they are Interstates (or some others that have very high Voltage charge requirements). 14.8 is high, and is what Trojan recommends for theirs. Most others only require 14.6 Volts.

You are CORRECT, but I'm only doing this because once it reaches the 15V MAXED, it shuts the PWM Controller down. So what I did is trying to get more out of the Panels for now. Once I figure it all out and it's working NORMALLY, I would put it back down to 14.5V

Imagine if I set it to 14.5 or even @ 13.5... The PWM would shut down earlier.... LOL Instead of about 11:30AM it's gonna be like around 9AM? LOL

Cariboocoot wrote: »

It is possible the controller is shutting down midday because the panels' output exceeds its input maximums. Even some MPPT controllers will do this. Cheap ones.

That's is what I am SUSPECTING all along....

Any one the Market you recommend?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Otherwise the Voltage should be brought up to 14.6 - 14.8 and held there for a given amount of time to complete the Absorb cycle and then drop back to Float level (around 13.8).

YES, I agree 100%, but NOT my case as you can see

that's why I post my problems on here.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Good luck.

Thank you, we will see tomorrow, LOL

I did take a Video of it, today. See below;

Timeline:

0-0:26 - Voltage Fluctuating because it's over 15V

0:27-0:37 - Amps Fluctuating because it's over 15V

0:38-1:03 - Back to Voltage Fluctuating because it's over 15V

1:04 - 1:33 - Load On for Testing - Normal charging because it's below 15V

IMPORTANT: Please Notice the Arrow on the Left / Panels Output when below 15V from 1:04 - 1:33 (This is NORMAL)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxdJ5ssXWkQ

Cariboocoot · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

What a cute display. Pity they didn't put as much effort into the functionality as they did the gimmickry. :roll:

I have to ask: is this with loads on/operative or just charging the battery? The solid arrow on the right would seem to indicate power going to loads. Later when it stabilizes at what appears to be Float Voltage the right arrow pulses like the left one. Maybe it means nothing.

For a decent PWM controller capable of 30 Amps with a meter check out the ProStar 30: http://www.solar-electric.com/ps-30m.html
Yes, it's a lot of money ($172). But they do actually work.

mtdoc · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

What a cute display. Pity they didn't put as much effort into the functionality as they did the gimmickry. :roll:

Looks like a poor copy of Steca PWM controllers which do work very well.

Cariboocoot · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

mtdoc wrote: »

Looks like a poor copy of Steca PWM controllers which do work very well.

I agree. On both points.

mtdoc · October 2012

Re: Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

I agree. On both points.

Sorry for the off topic -- but IMHO Steca PWM CCs are very under appreciated for small solar installations. I have one of their PR1010 s used with a 145 watt 12 volt sytem in a shed. For a little over $100 you get a nice temp compensated PWM controller with a good LCD display, volt/SOC meter and lighting/load controller.

Lots of cheap copies on ebay but I guess imitation = flattery. Unfortunately the OPs controller looks to copy form but not function.:roll:

Hi guys, I need some help with Battery Issues.

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