I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

johnbaunjohnbaun Registered Users Posts: 5
Could someone help me with the details? I have no idea what I'm doing.
I've seen a lot of charge controllers on ebay and was wondering if a 30A 12V/24V would do the job?
Maybe someone has a link to simple plans on what I'm trying to do.

Attachment not found.

Comments

  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    Welcome to the forum.

    This is not as far-fetched of an idea as some might think, as out on the ice of a lake the wind can be consistent.

    But as always the success is going to depend on what you want to use the power for. Before you can supply it, you've go to know how much you need to supply.

    Your basic outline is correct except for two things: the use of car batteries will prove disappointing, and you need an inverter to change the 12 VDC into 120 VAC.

    There are actually some small wind turbines pre-made which might be suitable for this. I'll see if I can find the link.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    Here is some information on designing a small/portable solar panel based power system:

    Emergency Power

    Basically a very long thread that starts from the beginning with a few vague requirements through design and assembly for a "portable" solar RE off-grid power box.

    And here is another example by Mike90045 called the Solar Monolith:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=384&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752636

    attachment.php?attachmentid=385&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752653

    Update pictures/information here.

    Now, wind is different in the sense you normally connect your wind turbine directly to the battery bank (fuse and diodes/rectifier on wind turbine).

    The wind turbine simply pumps any current it can into the battery bank. And then you use a "shunt/diversion" charge controller. Basically, when the battery is getting near full (say 14.5 volts) the shunt controller turns on and dumps excess current to a heater/resistor bank.

    This keeps the battery from over charging and prevents the wind turbine from over speeding (horizontal axis wind turbines will over speed if in moderate winds and no electrical loads--unless the unit is furled, braked, feather, or something else).

    In my humble opinion, wind turbines are not really great for day to day power production for most people (not enough wind, need to be ~30 feet above and 500 feet or so from obstructions, turbine should be at least 60' in the air). And if you have those conditions, wind turbines typically need a fair amount of maintenance to keep running.

    Also--if you are in an area with lightning, they are very attractive to a direct strike.

    If you have any sort of predictable sun (in the winter), a set of solar panels will generally be more reliable and easier to maintain. Also, reflections from snow/ice can help too when panels are near vertical (to shed snow).

    However--I am from California and know next to nothing about snow--So we have some other folks here from mountains and the great white north that can probably help too.

    -Bill

    PS: Also, it would be nice to know how much power per day you are planning on using (Watt*Hours per day, and peak load, etc.). A Kill-a-Watt type meter is very handy for this. Conservation will be your friend here.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    This is the thread I was thinking of: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15473-Small-Wind
    Worth having a look.
  • johnbaunjohnbaun Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    Welcome to the forum.

    This is not as far-fetched of an idea as some might think, as out on the ice of a lake the wind can be consistent.

    But as always the success is going to depend on what you want to use the power for. Before you can supply it, you've go to know how much you need to supply.

    Your basic outline is correct except for two things: the use of car batteries will prove disappointing, and you need an inverter to change the 12 VDC into 120 VAC.

    There are actually some small wind turbines pre-made which might be suitable for this. I'll see if I can find the link.

    For the most part I would be running lights, radio a small DVD player or lap top, cell phone charger and if possible a toaster oven... but I know that's asking a lot.
  • johnbaunjohnbaun Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    BB. wrote: »
    Here is some information on designing a small/portable solar panel based power system:

    Emergency Power

    Basically a very long thread that starts from the beginning with a few vague requirements through design and assembly for a "portable" solar RE off-grid power box.

    And here is another example by Mike90045 called the Solar Monolith:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=384&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752636

    attachment.php?attachmentid=385&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752653

    Update pictures/information here.

    Now, wind is different in the sense you normally connect your wind turbine directly to the battery bank (fuse and diodes/rectifier on wind turbine).

    The wind turbine simply pumps any current it can into the battery bank. And then you use a "shunt/diversion" charge controller. Basically, when the battery is getting near full (say 14.5 volts) the shunt controller turns on and dumps excess current to a heater/resistor bank.

    This keeps the battery from over charging and prevents the wind turbine from over speeding (horizontal axis wind turbines will over speed if in moderate winds and no electrical loads--unless the unit is furled, braked, feather, or something else).

    In my humble opinion, wind turbines are not really great for day to day power production for most people (not enough wind, need to be ~30 feet above and 500 feet or so from obstructions, turbine should be at least 60' in the air). And if you have those conditions, wind turbines typically need a fair amount of maintenance to keep running.

    Also--if you are in an area with lightning, they are very attractive to a direct strike.

    If you have any sort of predictable sun (in the winter), a set of solar panels will generally be more reliable and easier to maintain. Also, reflections from snow/ice can help too when panels are near vertical (to shed snow).

    However--I am from California and know next to nothing about snow--So we have some other folks here from mountains and the great white north that can probably help too.

    -Bill

    PS: Also, it would be nice to know how much power per day you are planning on using (Watt*Hours per day, and peak load, etc.). A Kill-a-Watt type meter is very handy for this. Conservation will be your friend here.

    Could solar and wind be linked together? The shanty would be used for long periods of time on weekends but probably not much on weekdays.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    johnbaun wrote: »
    For the most part I would be running lights, radio a small DVD player or lap top, cell phone charger and if possible a toaster oven... but I know that's asking a lot.

    The toaster oven jumps into the realm of the absurd. :p

    But if you have a Watt hour figure in mind or if you can live with a limited number of Watt hours (lights out 'cause there's no power to spare) ...

    Yes, solar and wind can both be used to recharge the same battery at the same time. Panels will do well in cold, but lack of sun can be a problem.
  • johnbaunjohnbaun Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    The toaster oven jumps into the realm of the absurd. :p

    But if you have a Watt hour figure in mind or if you can live with a limited number of Watt hours (lights out 'cause there's no power to spare) ...

    Yes, solar and wind can both be used to recharge the same battery at the same time. Panels will do well in cold, but lack of sun can be a problem.

    I really don't know much of the solar power or electronics lingo. I'm going to have my brother join this forum as he know a lot more about electricity than I do.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,007 admin
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    More or less, your battery power system will look like your car's electrical system.

    The "battery" is the heart of your system. Your battery has to be "sized" to support your loads (right voltage, right Amp*Hour capacity). And you can either power DC loads directly, or get a DC to AC inverter to power your "small" AC loads.

    A Kill-a-Watt type meter is great for planning your AC needs... But also really nice for use around your home to find old/badly running fridge/freezer, find out how much leaving a desk top computer on 24x7 really costs, etc.

    The charging source simply recharges the batteries. The wind turbine is very much like a car's alternator--Without the regulator (wind turbines do not use an electrical field and slip rings--instead they use permanent magnets), hence, why you need the "shunt regulator".

    The solar panels could be connected directly to the battery bank, but the charging is done better if you use a "series" charge controller (solar panels can be turned on and off without damage--not so a wind turbine).

    Note that some of the solar chargers can actually be used either as "series" chargers (for solar panels) or reconfigured as shunt controllers (for wind turbines). Here is one:

    Xantrex C40 40 Amp Solar Charge Controller

    Specifications
    User Manual

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    johnbaun wrote: »
    I really don't know much of the solar power or electronics lingo. I'm going to have my brother join this forum as he know a lot more about electricity than I do.

    Simple quantified power measurement: 1 Watt for 1 hour = 1 Watt hour. Any combination of Watts and hours multiplies out this way.
    You end up with figures like this:

    One 13 Watt CFL used to light shanty for four hours per day = (13 * 4) 52 Watt hours.
    To supply that from 12 VDC you need the conversion efficiency of the inverter (usually 90%) making it 58 Watt hours plus the inverter consumption (a small one like Morningstar's 300 for example) say 6 Watts and you get 64 Watt hours. Divide that by 12 and you get roughly the Amp hours needed: 5.3 Keeping the depth of discharge to a recoverable amount (like 25%) and you have the need for a 22 Amp hour 12 Volt battery to supply that light.

    That's just an example of how the basic math goes; not a specific design. :D

    If the power needs are critical you need to get a Kill-A-Watt meter and measure each item you want to run under 'real world' conditions to get actual Watt hour figures. Do not rely on the manufacturer's data for this as it is notoriously inaccurate +/-.
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    And here I thought ice fishing was to get away, which begs the question, why do need a phone charger, and a lap top while staring down an ice hole? (LOL)

    Someone once suggested to me that ice fishing was akin to duck hunting in a chimney! and I live where my neighbors are out all winter, in -40, and they don't use shacks,, just a tarp and a pole to keep the wind at bay,, but we like to "rough it" in these parts.

    Seriously, as has been suggested, define the loads, and work backwards. A couple of PV panels may well be likely to provide much more useable power in the net.

    Good luck and keep in touch,

    Tony
  • johnbaunjohnbaun Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    icarus wrote: »
    And here I thought ice fishing was to get away, which begs the question, why do need a phone charger, and a lap top while staring down an ice hole? (LOL)

    Someone once suggested to me that ice fishing was akin to duck hunting in a chimney! and I live where my neighbors are out all winter, in -40, and they don't use shacks,, just a tarp and a pole to keep the wind at bay,, but we like to "rough it" in these parts.

    Seriously, as has been suggested, define the loads, and work backwards. A couple of PV panels may well be likely to provide much more useable power in the net.

    Good luck and keep in touch,

    Tony

    This is my idea of getting away.

    Attachment not found.

    http://www.fishingfury.com/20080301/the-best-ice-fishing-hut-you-will-ever-see/
  • RybrenRybren Solar Expert Posts: 351 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    That's my kind of ice shack!
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    Good grief! That's nicer than my cabin! :D
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    Question is, what are we getting away from?

    Tony
  • CDN_VTCDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    Good grief! That's nicer than my cabin! :D

    No kidding !!!
    Carppided Ice :p

    In my mind was the movie "Grumpy old men" ice shack.

    VT
  • CDN_VTCDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    http://www.usawindgen.com

    Fair pricing , I was just wondering how the wiring can handle the 360* wind direction change.
    Watching his videos , its mentioned but sidestepped.

    For the amount , it would be fun to play / experiment .

    Just finished installing the water solar collectors on a 10/12 pitched roof, three stories up .
    The body is knowing new pains again.

    VT
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    CDN_VT wrote: »
    http://www.usawindgen.com

    Fair pricing , I was just wondering how the wiring can handle the 360* wind direction change.
    Watching his videos , its mentioned but sidestepped.

    For the amount , it would be fun to play / experiment .

    VT

    usawindgen site is interesting, and has some relatively sane information.

    His statements that some of his generators are designed for 45-65 MPH winds was a little surprising. If the winds where I was installing a turbine were that high, I would not be living there!

    And his statement that you calculate the output of a generator or a solar panel by multiplying Voc and Isc is bizarre.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    inetdog wrote: »
    And his statement that you calculate the output of a generator or a solar panel by multiplying Voc and Isc is bizarre.

    By "bizarre" you mean "totally wrong". :roll:
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    By "bizarre" you mean "totally wrong". :roll:

    It's neither bizarre nor wrong to a psychopathic retailer trying to suck money from unsuspecting customers who don't know any better.:cry:
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    I do not see where on the web site they say this about Voc * Isc, but it is wrong.

    For what it's worth, The Only Sarge has two of these and is happy with them: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15473-Small-Wind

    Could use one myself today, the way it's blowing out there. But it doesn't do that all the time (the major problem with wind power).
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    I do not see where on the web site they say this about Voc * Isc, but it is wrong.

    http://www.usawindgen.com/choose.html:
    So, to determine the output of any turbine or solar panel test open voltage and direct short amperage in perfect conditions. Multiply this voltage by the number of amps and you will have the maximum possible output of the turbine or panel in perfect conditions. This is the correct use of Ohm's Law.

    To be fair to him, his point is that you do not just divide max watts by 12 volts or 24 volts to get the max amp output. And if he said that Voc x Isc gives you an upper bound on the power, he would be technically right. It's just that nothing I have seen actually gets within 30% or so of that.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    To be further technically right it should say that a state of Voc * Isc on a solar panel cannot exist as the first is with nothing but a meter connected between the two output leads and the second is with them shorted together.

    The maximum Watts is the maximum output as it is a measure of total power (V*A), and even that comes with a lot of conditions (insolation and temperature to name the two big ones).

    In terms of V*A a panel's Watt rating is based on Vmp * Imp under test conditions. A turbine is not as simple as that.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    inetdog wrote: »
    http://www.usawindgen.com/choose.html:



    To be fair to him, his point is that you do not just divide max watts by 12 volts or 24 volts to get the max amp output. And if he said that Voc x Isc gives you an upper bound on the power, he would be technically right. It's just that nothing I have seen actually gets within 30% or so of that.
    And it won't. On a module's IV curve plot, draw a vertical line up from Voc and a horizontal one from Isc @ 1000W/m^2. The point at which they intersect is Voc X Isc. Notice that the IV curve does not pass through that point.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    ggunn wrote: »
    And it won't. On a module's IV curve plot, draw a vertical line up from Voc and a horizontal one from Isc @ 1000W/m^2. The point at which they intersect is Voc X Isc. Notice that the IV curve does not pass through that point.

    I am well aware of that, I was just looking at what would be a good rough estimate of how much that number would overshoot the actual MPP. I think 30% was pretty close.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • CDN_VTCDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    No worries , Nice Gent. Spoke with him for a bit.
    Bought a pair, lets see what the build is and what they can do.
    Charge control next I guess. next purchase .

    I get wind when / where the sun won't shine. WET COAST SUN .
    Breeze / wind always in those times.

    VT
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    inetdog wrote: »
    I am well aware of that, I was just looking at what would be a good rough estimate of how much that number would overshoot the actual MPP. I think 30% was pretty close.

    From a spec sheet I have lying on my desk (Trina TSM-PC14 285W):

    Vmp X Imp = 285.3W
    Voc X Isc = 374.5W

    374.5/285.1 = 1.31.

    Spot on.
  • DavidOHDavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.

    http://www.marlec.co.uk/wind-power/wind-power-for-touring-caravans-and-motorhomes/

    Look over that Solar Monolith. That's something you could easily copy. Like others said forget the toaster oven. Ask yourself if you really need AC.
    Everything you listed could be run on 12v DC ( Without the inverter! ) Lights, radio, CD/DVD Player, TV, microwave, even the toaster oven.
    http://www.jcwhitney.com/rv-camper/appliances/c2608j8s18.jcwx

    Do your homework and figure out what you want/need and how much you would use it. That's always the starting point; figuring your load.
    Then how much you want to buy/spend on meeting that demand. You'll probably drop some things when you see how much power they use and what it will cost to run.
    Yeah, we all would love to have a fishing hut like that! ( but you know it will need the LED flat screen TV and not the tube type! ) ;)
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    DavidOH wrote: »
    Yeah, we all would love to have a fishing hut like that!
    Um, for me, only if it were in the Caribbean! :D
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    ggunn wrote: »
    Um, for me, only if it were in the Caribbean! :D

    Er, you might have a little trouble putting an ice shanty out on the water in the Caribbean. :p
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: I want to build an ice shanty with wind power.
    Er, you might have a little trouble putting an ice shanty out on the water in the Caribbean. :p
    Well, of course I would use wind power to run the freezing units on the bottom to provide the ice shelf for it to sit on. Duh. :D
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