small system

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91winsun
91winsun Registered Users Posts: 14
does this sound workable
4 235 watt panels
midnite 150

4 L16 100 hr 430ah more /less

12 volt temporary,then 24 volt ,

how about 3 panels??

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,443 admin
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    Re: small system

    Hi '91... Here is my copyrighted way of looking at such a question. :roll:

    First, since you gave me a battery bank size--I am going to make all calculations based on the battery and how everything else hangs off it.

    First 4x L16 @430 AH at 100 Hour Rate... I prefer to use 20 Hour rate--that is closer to how most PV systems "use" the battery bank. Call it 6 volt @ 420 AH.

    I will "ignore" the 12 vs 24 volt and just work in "watts" for the most part at this point... A large bank like this should be at 24 volts unless you have specific reasons for 12 volt.

    So, first rule of thumb is 5% to 13% rate of charge. 5% if system is mostly in "float/standby". 10% or higher if in daily use--Also Trojan recommend 10% rate of charge (of 20 Hour rating):
    • 4x 7.25 volts charging * 420 AH per battery * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 791 Watt Solar Array minimum
    • 4x 7.25 volts charging * 420 AH per battery * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 1,582 Watt Array "nominal"
    • 4x 7.25 volts charging * 420 AH per battery * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.13 rate of charge = 2,056 Watt Array "cost effective maximum"

    So the first thing to say is this is a pretty hefty size battery bank. At 12 volts it would be 840 AH and if you were using a backup AC battery charger (24 volt arrangement would be 1/2 the current):
    • 840 AH * 0.05 = 42 Amps minimum
    • 840 AH * 0.10 = 84 amps nominal
    • 840 AH * 0.13 = 109 Amps typical max continuous
    • 840 AH * 0.25 = 210 Amps not to exceed (watch battery temperatures)

    A typical AC battery charger, non-power factor corrected would need around a generator of this size, minimum for a 10% rate of charge. Use 10% below, but range from 5% to 13%+ is typical range:
    • 84 amps * 14.5 volts * 1/0.67 typical charger power factor * 1/0.80 typ. charger efficiency * 0.10 rate of charge = 2,272 VA minimum generator loading
    Sizing the AC inverter... Typically I would suggest C/8 for maximum continuous discharge (flooded cell bank) and C/2.5 for maximum starting surge:
    • 4x 6 volt * 420 AH * 1/8 rate of discharge * 0.85 inverter efficiency = 1,008 watt max nominal AC loads
    • 4x 6 volt * 420 AH * 1/8 rate of discharge * 0.85 inverter efficiency = 3,226 watt max starting surge AC loads

    Normally, I would recommend a max continuous inverter rating of 1,200 watts for a 12 volt battery bank. To run a 1,200 watt 12 volt inverter:
    • 1,200 watts * 1/10.5 volt batt cutout * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1.25 NEC derating factor = 168 Amp minimum for Wiring/Breakers/Fuses

    If your AC loads are not too heavy (no refrigerators or microwaves), I would suggest a MorningStar 300 watt 12 VDC TSW inverter (600 watts for 10 minute surge). It is a great inverter and is a good reason for a 12 volt battery bank.

    Now, we suggest a battery bank has 1-3 days of storage and 50% maximum discharge... For for a 2 day bank and 50% maximum discharge, your "nominal" daily battery load would be around:
    • 4x 6 volts * 420 AH * 1/2 days * 0.50 max discharge * 0.85 inverter eff = 2,124 Watt*Hours of battery load per day (suggested)

    Lets say you are around Boulder Colorado and get a good 4.5 hours of sun minimum (get upwards of 6 hours per day for a couple summer months). PV Watts fixed array, Boulder:
    Month Solar Radiation
    (kWh/m 2/day)
    1 4.43
    2 4.89
    3 6.05
    4 6.09
    5 5.99
    6 6.08
    7 6.06
    8 6.24
    9 6.25
    10 5.67
    11 4.60
    12 4.29
    Year 5.56

    So, for the three different suggested arrays:
    • 791 Watt Solar Array minimum * 0.52 system derating * 4.5 Hours of sun per day = 1,850 Watt*Hours per day
    • 1,582 Watt Array "nominal" * 0.52 system derating * 4.5 Hours of sun per day = 3,702 Watt*Hours per day
    • 2,056 Watt Array "cost effective maximum" * 0.52 system derating * 4.5 Hours of sun per day = 4,812 Watt*Hours per day

    Anyway--That is the basics of system sizing... Before we get in the details of 3 vs 4 panels and such--What is your expectations of energy usage vs system ability?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: small system

    Here is my copy right answer. DEFINE THE LOADS before you buy/ install anything! All calcs derive from the loads, any other strategy is, as they say, bass ackwards.

    Welcome, and keep in touch,

    Tony
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    91winsun wrote: »
    does this sound workable
    4 235 watt panels
    midnite 150

    4 L16 100 hr 430ah more /less

    12 volt temporary,then 24 volt ,

    how about 3 panels??

    12 volts doesn't make sense for that system. Why would you consider it? Whether or not 24 volts is workable depends on your peak and average loads. It works for me, but I do a lot of opportunity loading. Also I run the generator for shop tools.

    Three panels may work, depends on the panel specs and the distance from panels to controller. Three panels must be hooked all in series or all in parallel. Four panels allows for 2 parallel strings of 2 panels in series.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    91winsun wrote: »
    does this sound workable
    4 235 watt panels
    midnite 150

    4 L16 100 hr 430ah more /less

    12 volt temporary,then 24 volt ,

    how about 3 panels??

    talking with the assumption you have already figured your loads out properly i would say it could work, but i'd advise against 3 pvs.

    i would not go to the 12v arrangement for the batteries, but go straight to the 24v one. sure you'd just rearrange the batteries, but a 12v inverter can't run at 24v so another inverter would need to be bought. this assumes you will have an inverter of course. losses are lower at 24v and the batteries will not need to be paralleled with the 24v setup, which all in series is more desirable for the batteries.

    the pvs can be done as 2 strings of 2 and this would also make it cheaper and easier for future pv expansions as each expansion would be a string of 2 pvs in series. also, the in to out voltage ratio, with no more than 2 pvs in series, will not go too high keeping the efficiency somewhat good. all 4 pvs in series may not work as the voc could exceed the ratings at times on the controller depending on what pv is used and even how cold it may get. this higher voltage would increase the in/out v ratio thus decreasing efficiency and would make expansions more expensive as they would now be in groups of 4 pvs for each expansion. the higher voltage may lessen the v drop for very long wire runs, but the lowered cc efficiency could negate that gain.

    you might think 3 pvs fit better as a compromise, but those batteries should have 4 of those pvs to keep a good charge into the batteries. of note for either case of 3 pvs or 2 strings of 2 pvs the next point of expansion would involve 6 pvs in total.
  • 91winsun
    91winsun Registered Users Posts: 14
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    Re: small system

    I have a Suresine 300 now. I have hardly ever used it so it would be a waste to not use it. I can change the batts. I cant believe that 1000 watts of panel
    isnt plenty for start system. anyway.......this is a back up system. If it was primary I would do 24v and 8 L16 and size everything else acording to those.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    91winsun wrote: »
    I have a Suresine 300 now. I have hardly ever used it so it would be a waste to not use it. I can change the batts. I cant believe that 1000 watts of panel
    isnt plenty for start system. anyway.......this is a back up system. If it was primary I would do 24v and 8 L16 and size everything else acording to those.

    Actually 1000 Watts of panel is plenty. If it's all you need.

    For example:

    1000 Watts * 4 hours good sun * 0.52 over-all efficiency = 2kW hours AC per day typically.
    1000 Watts @ 77% efficiency on a 12 Volt system = about 64 peak charging Amps; enough for a 640 Amp hour 12 Volt bank @ 10% charge rate.
    640 Amp hours @ 25% DOD = 160 Amp hours @ 12 Volts = 1920 Watt hours DC.

    This in and of itself would work well.

    What you've got is four 235 Watt panels or 940 Watts total. About 1.9kW hours AC.
    I don't understand your battery specs, but L16's are 300+ Amp hours. If these ones are 430 (at the 20 hour rate) you'd have two parallel strings of two for a 12 Volt system or 860 Amp hours @ 12 Volts.
    Your peak charge current would then be just under 7% of the battery capacity. This would work providing you don't discharge them too deeply and have fairly good sun for recharging (or a back up charge source like a generator).

    The question is: will this slightly less than 2kW hours AC per day meet your load needs?

    As for the number of panels, always buy in even numbers. Odd numbers can leave you a panel short in some configurations and the same panel may not be available when you need it.
    Three 235 Watt panels on that size battery bank (if I've got the size right) would be pretty low (just 5% peak charge current). In my opinion you'd be dissatisfied with the performance.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: small system

    coot,
    i believe he said the rating was at 100hrs so i figured he's probably around 370ah/battery.
  • SteveG
    SteveG Registered Users Posts: 19
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    Re: small system

    "niel, don't you mean 14.8 hours? I just wanted to double check your math. You said that 4.44kWh of energy at 300W draw would last him 14.8 days. I think you mean hours. So this battery wouldn't be too large (necessarily) for his system. But, it all depends on his loads."

    yikes, you're right!!! i don't know where my head was at at the time and i am embarrassed. i took out that portion of my post as it is downright wrong and thanks for pointing it out to me. niel
  • 91winsun
    91winsun Registered Users Posts: 14
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    Re: small system

    2K would be plenty for a back up but an off grid cabin would be at least 3K. I would have 6 panels and all the other quality gear for that I guess.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    91winsun wrote: »
    2K would be plenty for a back up but an off grid cabin would be at least 3K. I would have 6 panels and all the other quality gear for that I guess.

    You know, generalizing like that isn't a safe hobby. I certainly don't need 3kW for the cabin here. :D
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
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    Re: small system
    91winsun wrote: »
    2K would be plenty for a back up but an off grid cabin would be at least 3K. I would have 6 panels and all the other quality gear for that I guess.

    Um.. I'm at 870 watts of panels.. less than the 940 watts (235*4) you mentioned..

    I figure I have 7 hours of good sun from March - August.. and the A/C I plan on running will only be ran during the PEAK sun times..

    Using some number crunching.. I should have 539 watts per hour * 7 hours or 3775.8 watts on the 110V AC side of things.. even if I based this on 52% eff from DC-AC conversion I would still be at 3166 watts for the daily production numbers..

    My loads are mostly small.. the only big ones are the Fridge (which I've resolved on paper using a upright freezer with external temp).. and the A/C unit which will be a 5000 or 6000 btu model..

    I'll be pumping 40-60 amps per hour into the battery bank when the A/C is not running..

    My battery bank will start at like 400ah and end up at like 600ah more than likely..

    Even if I am totally wrong on the production numbers I feel pretty secure in knowing another 290 watts of panels (or less) will make me comfy.. I'm rocking a simple 2000w pure sine 12v inverter and the Classic 150, and I seem pretty confident all will be well.

    I do have a backup plan for an upgrade to a 24v system if needed.. involves the Magnum Energy 4024 inverter and about 6 more panels..

    I've had the ability to test 2 of my panels in some HEAT up here in NJ/PA to simulate the TX heat when I get down south.. gathering data and such..

    Anyway.. suggest measuring your real wattage numbers and start writing them down.. thats what I did..
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: small system

    Al;

    Converting an upright freezer to a refrigerator misses the key advantage; the cold air won't stay inside when you open the door. It will literally sill out and be replaced by warmer air which will then force the compressor to cycle again.

    Just thought I should mention that.
  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
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    Re: small system
    Al;

    Converting an upright freezer to a refrigerator misses the key advantage; the cold air won't stay inside when you open the door. It will literally sill out and be replaced by warmer air which will then force the compressor to cycle again.

    Just thought I should mention that.

    Didn't read that part in that persons notes.. LoL..

    Ok.. I'll try and find a chest freezer with some shelves in it then maybe.. thanks as always..
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    ywhic wrote: »
    Ok.. I'll try and find a chest freezer with some shelves in it then

    I would stick to your upright plans. An upright freezer converted to a fridge is a great idea because it is better insulated than a standard fridge. The weak link in any upright fridge or freezer is the gasket. Make sure the gaskets are tight! Chest fridges are a pain, and the condensation can make you miserable. Yes, a chest is always going to be more efficient than an upright, but not by much. The thermal mass of the cold air that spills out of an upright is not great. And the more food (or jugs of water) that you keep in the fridge, the less air there is to spill out. Of course the more times per day you open the door, the greater the advantage is in favor of the chest.

    My wife doesn't understand thermal mass. She tries to minimize the number of times she opens the fridge door. For example, she will take 5 items out of the fridge that she needs to cook with. Thirty minutes later, when she is done with them (and they have warmed up), she puts them all back in the fridge. She would be better off if she took one item out, used it, and then immediately put it back. That means she would open and close the door 5 times, but it takes less energy to cool 5 air changes than it takes to cool 5 warmed up items.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: small system

    Don't bet on it.
    How big are the items? How long is the door open? What is the difference in temperature between the 'frige and outside air?
    Lots of factors come in to play, and they are all variable factors; they won't be the same all the time.

    The big advantage of the converted chest freezer is keeping the cold air in. Look at all the open-top refrigerators in supermarkets.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    Don't bet on it.
    How big are the items? How long is the door open? What is the difference in temperature between the 'frige and outside air?
    Lots of factors come in to play, and they are all variable factors; they won't be the same all the time.

    The big advantage of the converted chest freezer is keeping the cold air in. Look at all the open-top refrigerators in supermarkets.

    This is a big advantage if you are going to leave the lid open all day. If you close any type again in a reasonable time, the air spill is still a relatively small factor. And supermarkets who are interested in energy conservation at least put covers over them when the store is closed.

    But then look at some of the bottom mount freezer sections in household kitchen refrigerator/freezers. Instead of a pull out chest, they have pull-out shelves and/or open bins. You think of it as you would a chest freezer since you look down on it, but get none of the advantages. In addition to spilling all the air, you are in effect taking all of the food out of the freezer for as long as the drawer is open.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    The big advantage of the converted chest freezer is keeping the cold air in. Look at all the open-top refrigerators in supermarkets.

    I did (and do) agree that a chest is more efficient than an upright. My point was that the spilled air from an upright has such a low heat capacity that its hardly worth the nuisance of using a chest.

    Back of envelope calculation: If my 8 cu ft fridge is half full of food then let me assume that every time I open the door 4 cu ft of cold air is replaced by 4 cu ft of air that is 20° C warmer. By volume, water has about 3500 times the heat capacity of air. Therefore a quart of water has 29 times the heat capacity of 4 cu ft of air. It will take more energy to cool the quart by 1 degree than to cool the 4 cu ft of air by 20 degrees.

    Waynefromnscanada has done a few freezer to fridge conversions:
    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=108252#post108252
    I've used converted chest freezers, but found them very inconvenient to use over time, so I now use a converted upright freezer and love it! What I find, is yes, the chest type don't let the cold air pour out, but far more important, is the fact that freezers in general are designed with far more insulation than fridges. The insulated walls etc are far thicker, the seals far better designed, thus keeping the heat from soaking in through those walls far better than any standard fridge. And in many cases, for some strange reason, at a much lower purchase price. My present upright freezer converted to fridge uses roughly 300 watt hours per 24 hour day. Runs 5 minutes, then is off for 60 minutes, making a 65 minute cycle time. AND since I like drinks etc to be ice cold, the temp is set to +2C, and what amazes me is how long things last at this temp compared to in "normal" fridges! I would never have expected that, and it's one more reason I'd never want go back to a regular fridge!

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    inetdog wrote: »
    If you close any type again in a reasonable time

    Okay, so now we know you're single with no kids. :p
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: small system
    Okay, so now we know you're single with no kids. :p

    Hahahahaha You're right about the no kids part, but I'm not single! My wife however is not able to open my "fridge" as due to a genetic glitch she has no hands.
    On the other hand (I have two) she does have 4 legs, and they're VERY hairy!
    Woof! Woof! :D:D
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
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    Re: small system
    On the other hand (I have two) she does have 4 legs, and they're VERY hairy!
    Woof! Woof! :D:D

    Lol. What happens in Nova Scotia, stays in Nova Scotia.