Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
I do not believe the numbers, so I will be retesting.

It is rated at 515 Watts; 5 Amps @ 115 VAC (575 Watts).
What I got:
Start up: 4.05 Amps @ 122 VAC (494 Watts). I guess the thing starts faster than the UPM meter can grab it. Even so, I will let it "warm up" and try again a couple of times to see what that number can max out at.
The 'Hi' fan was 71 Watts, the 'Low' fan was 52 Watts. Running the compressor maxed at 459 Watts.

If these numbers were believable I'd say it's a pretty good unit. But I don't believe that start-up surge.

Also remember that an A/C unit's run time is temperature dependent: 500 Watts for how long? The hotter it is, the longer it runs and the Watt hours climb (about a 2:1 ratio).

So there's the preliminary results. I have a big Penguin air conditioner I can test too (as soon as I find it). Never did the last two freezers either. I'll get to it! Eventually. :D
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Comments

  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    I do not believe the numbers, so I will be retesting.

    It is rated at 515 Watts; 5 Amps @ 115 VAC (575 Watts).
    What I got:
    Start up: 4.05 Amps @ 122 VAC (494 Watts). I guess the thing starts faster than the UPM meter can grab it.

    Since the stress on the inverter depends on the Volt-Amps, not just the Watts, and startup current can be highly reactive, a clamp-on AC ammeter which has a circuit to catch the peak value would work, or even using an old fashioned mechanical meter and looking at how far the needle twitches on Amps may give a better idea.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    My sisters LG Digital 6K A/C had 110 watts on F3 fan speed (aka high)..

    Tuned in for testing.. thanks Cariboocoot..
  • TheBackRoadsTheBackRoads Solar Expert Posts: 274 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    Is this a window unit Coot? I always wanted to try their mini-split...
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    Is this a window unit Coot? I always wanted to try their mini-split...

    Yes; cheap and noisy. :p
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    I was in a store the other day and looked at Haier 5K, 6K, 8K BTU

    The numbers on the units were

    4.5A
    5.42A
    7.7A

    I'm still trying to figure out how a 4.5 or 5.42 amp rated unit would pull over 15 amps if some outlets are rated to 15 amps and such..

    Maybe I'm being too simple on this..

    My sisters LG 6K was turning mid-500 on the watt meter and I noticed nothing higher than that.. granted I started the unit on Fan 3 speed only 1st.. (which like I said was 110 watts running)..
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    ^Starting current! An a/c unit. Starting with head pressure might have a huge draw,, and not just for a few milliseconds.

    I have a little frigidaire unit, that I run off the eu 1000 once or twice a year. I always start it fan only, then dial in the a/c, the turn up the fan speed. It won't hot start on the little genny, is I leave it on full cool all the time it is running,

    Tony
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    Al, the 15 Amp rating on outlets is for continuous use. Momentarily they can handle surges above that (breakers do not trip instantly if current goes above the rating). Surges over 20 Amps should not be a problem for the average outlet.

    You're Kill-A-Watt meter does not have a fast enough sampling rate to catch the start-up surges. My (now discontinued) UPM usually does, but it seems to be missing out this time.

    I might be able to fit another test in today. If not, it will have to wait 'til next week when I can get at the other equipment.
  • 2manytoyz2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    Most current meters have a sample rate far too slow to capture the actual start up current. I bought a Fluke meter specifically for this purpose. The term they use is "In-Rush".

    Here's my 5000 BTU window shaker being tested:

    acbox.jpg

    0402.jpg

    Mine's rated at 600W, which should be about 5A with the fan on high:

    0403.jpg

    With the compressor off, and blower on high, it draws a measly 0.2 Amps.

    Here's the actual startup current:

    acstartup.jpg

    This spike is easily handled by either of my 1800W inverters, and also my 2400W generator.

    Furthermore, here's the start up current for my 13,500 BTU A/C unit on my camper, also easily started with the small generator:

    rvaccurrent.jpg

    The issue with this information is you don't know how much startup current (peak, and duration) your specific inverter (or generator) can supply. Furthermore, no manufacturer is going to share that information about their products either.

    This information is useful for me regarding my generator. I have found through testing that it can supply about a 53 Amp surge before going into overload. Wouldn't start my old Dewalt air compressor, but just about any other 15A load. FWIW, the 1800W inverter WOULD start the air compressor. But the inverter was connected to a 900AH battery bank. Compare the potential energy between the battery bank and the generator, the smaller inverter wins.

    My larger compressor (RIDGID Tri-Stack) draws 67.8A, but runs on a 15A grid outlet. My generator won't begin to spin the motor. Not tried the inverter yet.
  • 2manytoyz2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    Here's a link from Fluke discussing In-Rush, and how their meters differ from others: http://www.myflukestore.com/crm_uploads/inrush_current.pdf

    Bought my Fluke on Ebay, gently used, for about $100.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    That's more like what I expect to see for start-up: 22.6 Amps.
    On the 12 VDC side of things it's roughly 10 times that, the the demand of the inverter itself. You can see why trying to start these things on a 12 Volt system requires a big battery bank and really good wiring as well as an inverter capable of a large surge.

    Change to a 24 Volt system and the 226+ Amps suddenly becomes 113 Amps, which is a lot easier to deal with.

    BTW, right now I'm running my 2 HP air compressor from the EU2000i - on "eco throttle". You should hear the "complaints" when it kicks on. But it does start it. Eventually. (No problem if I turn the eco off, but then it wastes a lot of gas waiting for the load demand.) The gen will also start the Fedders A/C without complaint, even with eco on.

    Another important fact: the shorter the duration of the start surge, the better. This is why water pumps are often the hardest things to get going: trying to start against almost a full load.
  • DillDill Solar Expert Posts: 170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    I don't have the nice tester like Robert (as my results will show) but my unit is a 5000 btu Soleus Air.

    as tested with a Kill-A-Watt

    116V AC from inverter

    .39 amps AC on high fan
    8.69 amps AC surge seen when the compressor turned on to high
    3.2 amps AC when compressor settles into running mode in an 80F garage

    my Xantrex ProWatt SW 1000 actually started and ran it. Your results may vary of course, I normally run this unit off a Honda EU1000i so I don't normally run it from the inverter.
  • oil pan 4oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    I have seen much larger A/C units momentarily draw about 8 to 9 times more power on start up than the running load draw.
    The power metering equipment I was using was very fast acting, But the surge showed up very clearly for a solid second or 2.
    I am thinking running load vs. start up load is not linearly proportional on small vs big units.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • RandomJoeRandomJoe Solar Expert Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    It also depends greatly on how the units were designed. I have two 9000 BTU ACs, one is the mini-split in the back room the other a portable cooler with the hose you stick in the window for the condenser air exhaust.

    They both run right around 1000W while operating, but the mini-split has a much larger startup inrush. I can easily run the portable unit on my Honda EU2000i, but when the mini-split tries to start the generator just bogs down until I unplug the AC. I haven't yet tried measuring the portable unit's inrush, but the mini-split has shown well over 5,000W on my Mate monitor when starting it on the inverter.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    I am going to post this, it's pricey @ $380-$425, but if you are in a situation where it could cost you a lot more to make changes to you system, it might be cheap. I never tried one, but the people who have them swear be them. I know it hard to justify one for a $99 A/C, but the cheapest Marine air you can buy is around $1,200 for a 5000 BTU.

    Smart Start

    http://www.dometic.com/284244e1-55cd-4bac-b65e-1d54ed1cfc64.fodoc
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    I am going to post this, it's pricey @ $380-$425, but if you are in a situation where it could cost you a lot more to make changes to you system, it might be cheap. I never tried one, but the people who have them swear be them. I know it hard to justify one for a $99 A/C, but the cheapest Marine air you can buy is around $1,200 for a 5000 BTU.

    Smart Start

    http://www.dometic.com/284244e1-55cd-4bac-b65e-1d54ed1cfc64.fodoc

    it sounds like a capacitor and if so that's one of the most expensive ones i've seen.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    niel wrote: »
    it sounds like a capacitor and if so that's one of the most expensive ones i've seen.
    I saw the inside of it, it's no capacitor the circuit board filled the whole box. There may have been something under it, I didn't see.

    Here is a video of it in action and a write up. if you Google it, you'll see lot's on it.

    http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/62158-honda-eu2000i-air-conditioning-3.html
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    Well today at HD I saw 3 LG models

    5K, 6K, & 8K

    The running rating on the boxes were 4.8A, 5.2A, 7.4A

    Still tuned in..
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    I bought a LG 8000 BTU window unit this spring. Never ran it on my Kill-A-Watt, I'll have to do that. I can tell you that I bought a Frigidaire 8000 BTU unit first and its quality was awful compared to the LG. The LG was built better and runs much quieter.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • RandomJoeRandomJoe Solar Expert Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    niel wrote: »
    it sounds like a capacitor and if so that's one of the most expensive ones i've seen.

    Soft starters are basically a one-shot variable-speed drive. They ramp from 0 to full voltage/frequency on start, usually over an adjustable time, then the load is simply across the line. I've seen quite a few of them installed in commercial HVAC, but there I question their utility. Their cost is often not much less than simply installing a variable-speed drive, so why not do that and get more control over things?

    But that is for air handlers and cooling tower fans where varying their speed is actually useful. In this specific case, that probably isn't useful, and a soft-starter is out of circuit once running whereas a VFD is always inline and consuming a bit of power itself so it does have that benefit.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    RandomJoe wrote: »
    Soft starters are basically a one-shot variable-speed drive. They ramp from 0 to full voltage/frequency on start, usually over an adjustable time, then the load is simply across the line. I've seen quite a few of them installed in commercial HVAC, but there I question their utility. Their cost is often not much less than simply installing a variable-speed drive, so why not do that and get more control over things?

    But that is for air handlers and cooling tower fans where varying their speed is actually useful. In this specific case, that probably isn't useful, and a soft-starter is out of circuit once running whereas a VFD is always inline and consuming a bit of power itself so it does have that benefit.
    I hear you , they do come from the Boating World.

    BOAT = Bring on another Thousand.

    New Generator ( $1,000 per KW or More, starting Price 3 KW $5,400 )
    New Inverter
    More Batteries
    New Wiring

    To some it may be a cheap alternative ( $400 ) and a steal, To be able to run a 16,000 BTU A/C on a Honda EU2000 is pretty amazing on ECO throttle. Personally, I don't need it, but I would try one for the heck of it. For a RV'er with a 13,500 unit it would be perfect.
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    2manytoyz wrote: »

    Mine's rated at 600W, which should be about 5A with the fan on high:

    acbox.jpg

    By both 1800W inverters did you mean Pro Sine 1800 and Pro Watt SW 2000??

    Could you possibly do an DC AMP draw reading for surge using the SW 2000 and the same A/C??

    Maybe do FAN first (if you can).. then switch it to LOW A/C..

    I'd like to see what the DC surge might be usiing the SW 2000..
  • 2manytoyz2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    ywhic wrote: »
    By both 1800W inverters did you mean Pro Sine 1800 and Pro Watt SW 2000??

    Could you possibly do an DC AMP draw reading for surge using the SW 2000 and the same A/C??

    Maybe do FAN first (if you can).. then switch it to LOW A/C..

    I'd like to see what the DC surge might be usiing the SW 2000..

    Yes, the Prowatt SW2000. It's actually an 1800W (continuous) inverter. IIRC, the 2000 Watt rating was for 5 minutes.

    I can run a couple of tests comparing the A/C unit on the inverter vs. the grid. Should be the same. I'll have to wait between tests as running the compressor builds up a head pressure, and restarting it too quickly can stall the compressor. I want the numbers to be accurate, and the tests to be fair.

    I'll post my results in a couple of days in this thread...
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    That would be great thank you..

    Looking forward to some numbers..
  • 2manytoyz2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    Sorry for the delay in following up. We have family in town from Scotland, so been occupied. For those who haven't been following along...

    I pulled out my cheap Goldstar 5000 BTU A/C unit, and connected it to the Xantrex Prowatt SW2000 inverter for the first test. After I made the measurements, the A/C unit was turned off, and allowed to sit for about 1/2 hour. This ensured the pressures in the compressor were allowed to return to normal before testing the A/C unit on the grid. I didn't want to run the tests too close to one another, with a high head pressure, which would skew the numbers.

    The setup:

    Attachment not found.

    To capture the start up current accurately, I used a Fluke 334 meter with an "In-Rush" features. It makes many measurements in the short (milli-seconds) spike that occurs when the compressor tries to roll over. Most meters are too slow to get an accurate - repeatable number. I bought this meter specifically for this feature.

    Here's the start up current when operating the A/C unit from the inverter:

    Attachment not found.

    Here's the start up current when the A/C unit was operating on grid power:

    Attachment not found.

    Identical. I tried to measure the start up current of the fan by first turning the compressor off. The spike was so low, the meter stayed in the capture mode, and wouldn't trigger.

    Here's the running current of the fan on high (grid or inverter):

    Attachment not found.

    Pretty much confirmed what I expected. The A/C unit performs the same on grid or inverter power. While my inverter is only $325 (presently), it does make a sine wave cleaner than the grid in my area.

    FWIW, there's no perceivable difference in start up sound, or time to get up to full speed, whether on grid, or inverter.
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    Thanks.. if going from FAN to the A/C (after a minute or two) do you know if the pull was the same 21.9 Amps or was it less??

    Scotland rocks.. I was in Edzell (between Aberdeen and Glasgow) back in 88-90 when I was in the Nav.
  • 2manytoyz2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    The current of the fan was so small, it really didn't make any difference. With the RV A/C unit (13,500 BTUs), starting the fan FIRST, then kicking on the compressor, does lower the starting current slightly. With the small 5000 BTU A/C unit, didn't see a difference.

    Also didn't notice a difference in the amount of running current with the compressor engaged, and the fan on high or low. Two meters both said the running current still fluctuated about the same amount.

    This A/C is so easy to start that my Yamaha EF2400iS generator stays at idle, and barely bumps the throttle momentarily when the compressor engages.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    One thing I've noticed in my refrigeration tests is that the newer units start more easily. Part of this is the switch to rotory compressors, but part of it may also be the different refrigerants that are now used. The change in properties alters the amount of compression used to get results, and thus the load on the motor upon start-up. It also seems they don't run as cold, but run longer.

    Nobody is paying me to do extensive power usage comparisons in some big fancy lab somewhere, so all I can go by is anecdotal observation here. :p
  • ywhicywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    2manytoyz wrote: »
    Most current meters have a sample rate far too slow to capture the actual start up current. I bought a Fluke meter specifically for this purpose. The term they use is "In-Rush".

    Here's my 5000 BTU window shaker being tested:

    acbox.jpg

    0402.jpg

    Mine's rated at 600W, which should be about 5A with the fan on high:

    0403.jpg

    With the compressor off, and blower on high, it draws a measly 0.2 Amps.

    Here's the actual startup current:

    acstartup.jpg

    This spike is easily handled by either of my 1800W inverters, and also my 2400W generator.

    Furthermore, here's the start up current for my 13,500 BTU A/C unit on my camper, also easily started with the small generator:

    rvaccurrent.jpg

    The issue with this information is you don't know how much startup current (peak, and duration) your specific inverter (or generator) can supply. Furthermore, no manufacturer is going to share that information about their products either.

    This information is useful for me regarding my generator. I have found through testing that it can supply about a 53 Amp surge before going into overload. Wouldn't start my old Dewalt air compressor, but just about any other 15A load. FWIW, the 1800W inverter WOULD start the air compressor. But the inverter was connected to a 900AH battery bank. Compare the potential energy between the battery bank and the generator, the smaller inverter wins.

    My larger compressor (RIDGID Tri-Stack) draws 67.8A, but runs on a 15A grid outlet. My generator won't begin to spin the motor. Not tried the inverter yet.

    I just noticed you were testing the AC side for the surge..

    Can you CLAMP the DC wire to the inverter and see what the spike was from the battery bank end of things??
  • 2manytoyz2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test
    ywhic wrote: »
    I just noticed you were testing the AC side for the surge..

    Can you CLAMP the DC wire to the inverter and see what the spike was from the battery bank end of things??

    The Fluke meter I have that's fast enough to capture startup spikes, only captures AC spikes, not DC. However, I can put my Extech DC ammeter on the inverter, and have a look on that side. Get back with results in the next day or two.
  • 2manytoyz2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    Re: Fedders 5000 BTU A/C test

    I put together a boring 6 minute video last night so those interested can see the window shaker being tested. Warning, contains nerd content.

    [video=youtube_share;SxV7rv5wTUg]
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