Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #32
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    Cariboocoot wrote: »

    Keep in mind these inverters with built-in outlets are meant to be "end use", not wire to an AC distribution system. .

    C-Coot, page 20 of manual, "sec 3.4 Hard-wire Installation" ... looks like these are meant to be permanent, even though in the intro it talks about 'mobile power', probably a standard intro for all their inverters??
     
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    Could be. I didn't write the manual so don't know for sure. They may have a boilerplate for their manuals and then "adjust as needed". Sometimes they may miss an adjustment, or make the wrong one. :D
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #34
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    Thanks Cariboo.. When I get my Samlex SSW-1500 inverter in the next 4 weeks I will test this out (on a 1 outlet and small 30 amp panel scale) and do a write up and report with the parts, wiring, and such..

    The 30 amp 'panel', breaker, and 1 outlet is cheap.. its the $360 inverter thats gonna hurt.. LoL

    70amp.jpg

    I would like to help people abit on here, and any demo's can only help me as well..

    Maybe the OP will get his issue resolved and if possible snap some pics of the inside of the inverter GFI mess..
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  • 97TJ
    97TJ Solar Expert Posts: 68 ✭✭
    #35
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    Because the Cotek SK 1000 model is available in several outlet configurations, one of which is a hardwire outlet, I have contacted Cotek to see if I can get one and change it out or have someone do it if it is to involved for me. Also in my original post I indicated that I have a GFI in my 20 amp circuit. If neutral and ground are bonded in the panel does it make sense that simply turning off all of the breakers wouldn't prevent the two GFI's from not playing well together?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #36
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    If you turn off the breakers, how do you power anything?
    The problem arises when current goes "out" the hot of the GFI outlet and is expected to come "back in" the neutral. This outlet has a neutral bond to ground on its input side. If a second bond to ground is present on its output side there is a path for the "return current" that bypasses the GFI's neutral detection, creating the imbalance that trips it.
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  • 97TJ
    97TJ Solar Expert Posts: 68 ✭✭
    #37
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    If you turn off the breakers, how do you power anything?
    I don't know but I took a length of 12/2 and on one end put a plug. Black to gold, white to silver and green to green. Then on the other end of the 12/2 I connected black to the 30 amp breaker in the panel, white to the neutral bus bar and green to the ground lug. With all of the breakers in the off position, plugging the 12/2 into the inverter trips the inverter GFI.
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  • CATraveler
    CATraveler Solar Expert Posts: 98 ✭✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    I have not encountered issues with serial GFIs on a circuit. My RVs have all had a GFI to protect some on the plugs. I occassionally plug the RV into a 20A GFI and check that the remaining RV circuits have not developed a problem. Both serial GFIs work OK.

    My house has an incrediable 15A 14ga 270' circuit with the first plug a GFI feeding 7 more plugs. No problem with the GFI.

    But I do think that not all GFIs are the same and results may vary. I suspect that household GFIs work the best simply because they must in order to get/stay into that larger market. A GFI built into an inverter thought might be less tolerant, less well tested and meet who knows what standards.
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #39
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    Theres an FAQ on gounding and neutral bonding on Samlex site..

    http://www.samlexamerica.com/support/faqs/faq16.aspx#question_7

    See notes # 9,10, & 11..

    I don't know what that means but its something for thought.. anyone want to explain I'm all ears..
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #40
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    CATraveler wrote: »
    I have not encountered issues with serial GFIs on a circuit. My RVs have all had a GFI to protect some on the plugs. I occassionally plug the RV into a 20A GFI and check that the remaining RV circuits have not developed a problem. Both serial GFIs work OK.

    My house has an incrediable 15A 14ga 270' circuit with the first plug a GFI feeding 7 more plugs. No problem with the GFI.

    But I do think that not all GFIs are the same and results may vary. I suspect that household GFIs work the best simply because they must in order to get/stay into that larger market. A GFI built into an inverter thought might be less tolerant, less well tested and meet who knows what standards.

    Are all your ciircuits with SEPARATE ground and neutral wiring?? or are they Bound/Combined at some point???

    I read this in section #8 of the that FAQ..

    The connection between the "Neutral" and the grounding electrode conductor is made only at one point in the system. This is known as the system ground. This single point connection (bond) is usually made in the service entrance or in the load center. If this connection is inadvertently made in more than one place, then unwanted currents will flow in the equipment grounding conductors. These unwanted currents may cause inverters and charge controllers to be unreliable and may interfere with the operation of ground-fault detectors and over-current devices
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  • CATraveler
    CATraveler Solar Expert Posts: 98 ✭✭✭✭
    #41
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    97TJ wrote: »
    I don't know but I took a length of 12/2 and on one end put a plug. Black to gold, white to silver and green to green. Then on the other end of the 12/2 I connected black to the 30 amp breaker in the panel, white to the neutral bus bar and green to the ground lug. With all of the breakers in the off position, plugging the 12/2 into the inverter trips the inverter GFI.
    Some GFIs have a second detection circuit that detects a neutral to ground fault. No current or even device turned on or even plugged in is required for the GFI to trip.

    So in your case with the hot disconnected the GFI can detect the panel neutral/ground bond and trip.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #42
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    97TJ wrote: »
    I don't know but I took a length of 12/2 and on one end put a plug. Black to gold, white to silver and green to green. Then on the other end of the 12/2 I connected black to the 30 amp breaker in the panel, white to the neutral bus bar and green to the ground lug. With all of the breakers in the off position, plugging the 12/2 into the inverter trips the inverter GFI.

    From your description it sounds like you followed the correct wiring procedure. In theory this should not happen as there are no loads drawing current. In practice it seems that is does. It is not the first time this same scenario has cropped up on the forum. I believe it is related to the household false trips I described before.

    Could you try the same set up only with a load on the wiring before you plug it in to the inverter?

    What CATraveler said about not all GFI's being alike is woefully true. I've had one blow and need to be replaced about one day after install with no loads placed on it. Evidently they don't always take enough care with the construction. They could even wind the coils imbalanced to begin with.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #43
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    CATraveler wrote: »
    Some GFIs have a second detection circuit that detects a neutral to ground fault. No current or even device turned on or even plugged in is required for the GFI to trip.

    So in your case with the hot disconnected the GFI can detect the panel neutral/ground bond and trip.

    This relates to what Al was referencing in the Samlex manual: the fact that without an earth ground an inverter's "neutral" output is just the other side of the AC hot. This is the same with a generator, btw.

    97TJ needs to also look and make sure that a second neutral-ground bond is not present in his distribution box.
    You absolutely can not have a N-G bond on the output side of a GFI.
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  • CATraveler
    CATraveler Solar Expert Posts: 98 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    ywhic wrote: »
    Are all your ciircuits with SEPARATE ground and neutral wiring?? or are they Bound/Combined at some point???
    Yes, the RV distribution panel is not bonded. The bonding occurs at the camp ground panel.

    The rest of the story:
    Disclaimer 1: The gen is also bonded and it's output and shore power feed a transfer switch. When the gen is running it supplies the bonding and the shore power is disconnected.
    Disclaimer 2: My Magnum ME 2012 is both a charger/inverter. It has a 30A AC input from the panel. The inverter contains a transfer switch. When the inverter is suppling AC power it's output circuits are bonded in the inverter and AC power from the panel is disconnected.

    The transfer switches both the hot and neutral which is why the gen and inverter bonding do not cause any GFI problems.

    Also all components have a single bonded ground.
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #45
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    97TJ needs to also look and make sure that a second neutral-ground bond is not present in his distribution box.
    You absolutely can not have a N-G bond on the output side of a GFI.

    I just talked with Samlex Tech support.. correct.. only 1 neutral & ground bond allowed in the circuit..

    I asked about:

    A) swapping to regular outlet and if that would get rid of the neutral bond... YES.. (then your standard house wiring N/G bond takes place)..
    b) making sure my wiring in my outlets and panel are not neutral bound to ground, and would that work with the inverter GFCI.. Yes..

    If the GFCI outlet is used on the inverter.. no other neutral/ground binding can be ANYWHERE in the wiring..
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  • CATraveler
    CATraveler Solar Expert Posts: 98 ✭✭✭✭
    #46
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    Apparently one solution is to remove the inverter GFI and neutral/ground bond.

    Hopefully you could then add GFI protection at either the panel output CB or circuit plug. However do a test as GFIs do not play well with floating neutral devices like portable gens and inverters.
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #47
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    Heres the neutral bond screw inside my mini-load panel I just got today.. 1 green screw (long) goes thru the isolation plastic under the neutral busbar and into the actual box metal.. 1-2 turns and it slid out..

    Granted I could ground my PV panels at the 'combiner box' as thats THIS BOXES purpose.. and not as a power panel per se..

    and I'm not sure if the negative side from the panels would cause a shock if I did leave that ground BOND screw in place..

    NeutralBond.JPG

    I'd prefer to ground them outside though.. so the screw will come out..

    Maybe the OP could check his panel for the little green screw and try the inverter to it without.. (Lega disclaimer: I'm not an electrician though)..
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  • 97TJ
    97TJ Solar Expert Posts: 68 ✭✭
    #48
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    Thanks for all the ideas. I'll let you all know what I find when I get back up there next month.
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  • 97TJ
    97TJ Solar Expert Posts: 68 ✭✭
    #49
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(

    OK, finally got up to the cabin to finish installing the rest of my solar panels and then to try to figure out how to keep the GFI on the Cotek SK-1000 from kicking off every time I tried to connect it to the cabin wiring. The wife and I got the panels up on the pole (3 200 watt panels and the associated mounting hardware is pretty heavy) without injuring ourselves. As far as the inverter wiring, I went ahead and disconnected the neutral/ground bond at the main panel. Everything worked fine after that. The cabin wiring also has a GFI outlet that worked fine with the GFI in the inverter. Thanks again everyone for your help.
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #50
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    97TJ wrote: »
    OK, finally got up to the cabin to finish installing the rest of my solar panels and then to try to figure out how to keep the GFI on the Cotek SK-1000 from kicking off every time I tried to connect it to the cabin wiring. The wife and I got the panels up on the pole (3 200 watt panels and the associated mounting hardware is pretty heavy) without injuring ourselves. As far as the inverter wiring, I went ahead and disconnected the neutral/ground bond at the main panel. Everything worked fine after that. The cabin wiring also has a GFI outlet that worked fine with the GFI in the inverter. Thanks again everyone for your help.

    Was it the little screw on the neutral bus bar (going into the back of the metal panel casing)?? or did they have all the GND/NEUTRAL going to the neutral buss bar??
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  • 97TJ
    97TJ Solar Expert Posts: 68 ✭✭
    #51
    Re: Frustrated-a fairly long post :-(
    ywhic wrote: »
    Was it the little screw on the neutral bus bar (going into the back of the metal panel casing)?? or did they have all the GND/NEUTRAL going to the neutral buss bar??

    More or less, yes. The panel is not the same as you have in your picture, but in concept that is what I did. All the ground wires go to a single point in the box but no longer to neutral. (I too am not an electrician).
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