6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

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Comments

  • Joe_B
    Joe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Dusty wrote: »
    Well, one can only hope that they monitor this forum for ideas to upgrade Firmware to what functionality the customers are looking for. :roll:

    If one thing has become clear to me over the four someodd years that I have had the XW, its that they dont care one bit about their customers!
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    My experience with Optima Batteries is that they will always draw on a charger. I can put a charger on a regular AGM battery and it will sit there with zero amp draw and put the same charger and clip in onto a Optima and it will be constantly pushing back into the Optimas 24/7. There is something in their chemistry that causes them to it.

    Interesting...Since my system charger floats, I'm not able to confirm that my batteries always draw on a charger. However, my car battery is also and Optima AGM (Red top), and the plug-in car battery charger usually stops when the battery is topped off.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    If one thing has become clear to me over the four someodd years that I have had the XW, its that they dont care one bit about their customers!

    Was it the same when it was Xantrex, or has support gotten worse since Schneider took them over?
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Dusty wrote: »
    Interesting...Since my system charger floats, I'm not able to confirm that my batteries always draw on a charger. However, my car battery is also and Optima AGM (Red top), and the plug-in car battery charger usually stops when the battery is topped off.
    Have you ever put a amp meter on them ?? I can take a new one out of the shrink wrap and it'll initially charge and it sit there and flicker on and off all day long. Just my observation., If I had a bank of them, i'd think they would have a big pull. Being in Float depends on ending AMPS and current draw, you can float and still be drawing current unless the voltage drops below the trigger.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Have you ever put a amp meter on them ?? I can take a new one out of the shrink wrap and it'll initially charge and it sit there and flicker on and off all day long. Just my observation., If I had a bank of them, i'd think they would have a big pull. Being in Float depends on ending AMPS and current draw, you can float and still be drawing current unless the voltage drops below the trigger.

    No, I've never tried that. I know that AGM's have a very low internal resistance, so perhaps that's why they constantly draw a little current.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Dusty wrote: »
    No, I've never tried that. I know that AGM's have a very low internal resistance, so perhaps that's why they constantly draw a little current.
    I have 3 of them all on separate chargers on my boat and I have noticed that as I replaced the Deka Marine batteries I had that these seen to be always taking some current. I have had Optimas for 20 years when they were not made in this country ( Sweden, I think ) and they have been great. I posted this because maybe they could confuse what your trying to do with your inverter.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    I have 3 of them all on separate chargers on my boat and I have noticed that as I replaced the Deka Marine batteries I had that these seen to be always taking some current. I have had Optimas for 20 years when they were not made in this country ( Sweden, I think ) and they have been great. I posted this because maybe they could confuse what your trying to do with your inverter.

    I've been using them in my vehicles for about a decade and have always been happy with them. When I started this PV project, I decided to start with a small AGM battery bank while I was learning the ropes. I have 8 type D34/78 Optimas (two strings) to give me 110AH of reserve. It's not much, but the system has been working fine so far.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_B
    Joe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Dusty wrote: »
    Was it the same when it was Xantrex, or has support gotten worse since Schneider took them over?

    I was both hopefull and optimistic that things would change when S bought out the line but I have found that there was virtually no change. They even appear to have the same folks running tech support. It's the same corporate additude towards the end user. Heck, just try to get the number for tech support, it isnt posted anywhere that I can find on their website. Also when you try to use their contact form, it errors and trashes your inquiry. Recently when you call tech support, you get voicemail asking you to leave a call back number. Fortunately they do seem to return your call after a few days. That is what I consider lousy support bordering on contempt for us ignorant customers who shelled out the cash to join the XW club.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

    I know what you mean about the phone number. The one on their website didn't work for me either. When I bought the 6048, the firmware was a revision old. You'd think they'd update the system's firmware before shipping it out. I had to get a dongle and update it myself. NAWS was very helpful in hooking me up with a good number for tech support though. That's why I order everything I need from them. Great support!
    Joe_B wrote: »
    I was both hopefull and optimistic that things would change when S bought out the line but I have found that there was virtually no change. They even appear to have the same folks running tech support. It's the same corporate additude towards the end user. Heck, just try to get the number for tech support, it isnt posted anywhere that I can find on their website. Also when you try to use their contact form, it errors and trashes your inquiry. Recently when you call tech support, you get voicemail asking you to leave a call back number. Fortunately they do seem to return your call after a few days. That is what I consider lousy support bordering on contempt for us ignorant customers who shelled out the cash to join the XW club.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

    Joe,

    One thing I'm seeing with the Victron meter is confusing...I made sure my SCC had fully recharged the batteries and was in "float" mode, then I manually synched the Victron meter. When I got home today, the Victron was in alarm mode with 46% SOC (I set Discharge floor at 60 which I believe is a 60% SOC), yet my SCC is still in Float mode, and I'm selling almost 1Kw to the grid. Is this because I only have 110Ah of battery capacity? BTW, Load shave is disabled, and sell amps was set to 10. I've dropped it to 8 to see if that makes any difference, but I thought that if the charger was in float, the batteries were fully charged. Even the Victron manual says when the charger is in float, the batteries are fully charged.

    The SSC charge rate is 3-stage and set to 100% max charge rate. Recharge volts are set to 52.0. Current battery voltage is 53.2 according to the SCP.

    Dusty
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Joe_B wrote: »

    Something is wrong there Dusty, are you sure that the Victron is set up and installed correctly? Did you manually sync it? Are the parameters set up correctly? I have never seen my Victron say the battery SOC was at 0%. Can you properly display the current and voltage of the bank? By the way, there are a lot of bugs in the load shaving algorithm, I dont ever enable that mode.

    Joe

    Joe,

    I got a reply back from Optima batteries. They sent me a Peukert chart, and using the Peukert calculator I came up with 1.07 as the exponent. I'll enter that in the Victron when I get home today. They did not give me the efficiency rating, so I've asked them again for that information.

    When the panels were in full sun and selling over 1Kw to the grid, the draw from my batteries was at times over 40 amps! I thought that since I had about 1.5Kw going into the batteries from the SCC at the same time, the batteries would stay topped off. According to the voltage level (which I know isn't the most accurate way of seeing the battery SOC), the SCC remained in Float while I observed the large battery current drain.

    Shouldn't the Victron see both the charge from the SCC to the batteries and the draw to the grid at the same time and report the difference as Ah gained or lost? Does the 6048 just draw from the battery until it reaches the recharge volts setting and then starts to recharge the batteries? If that's the case, where does the 1.5kw from the SCC go while the system is in float other than lto the oads/grid? At the time I was checking the monitor and SCP, my system loads were less than 300 watts, so there was 1.2kwatts available for maintaining the battery while it was selling to the grid.:confused:
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

    Thinking more about how the SCC is wired up....I'm using the Midnight Solar E-panel, and the way I have it wired up, the SCC's negative wire is connected on the same side of the shunt as the 4/0 negative battery wire--so the Victron will never see the current going from the SCC back into the batteries, since that current does not go through the shunt at all. That's why the Victron is showing such a large drain on the batteries and not taking into account the power from the SCC going into the batteries at the same time. It would only see the inverter/charger providing power to the batteries, but I've got the inverter set to 2-stage and the SCC to 3-stage. I think I've got to move the negative wire that currently goes directly from the SCC to the battery and connect it to the other side of the shunt. There is a negative bus bar on that side labeled "battery negative bus" on the E-panel diagram, so that should solve my problems. I'll give that a try tonight.
    Dusty wrote: »
    Joe,

    I got a reply back from Optima batteries. They sent me a Peukert chart, and using the Peukert calculator I came up with 1.07 as the exponent. I'll enter that in the Victron when I get home today. They did not give me the efficiency rating, so I've asked them again for that information.

    When the panels were in full sun and selling over 1Kw to the grid, the draw from my batteries was at times over 40 amps! I thought that since I had about 1.5Kw going into the batteries from the SCC at the same time, the batteries would stay topped off. According to the voltage level (which I know isn't the most accurate way of seeing the battery SOC), the SCC remained in Float while I observed the large battery current drain.

    Shouldn't the Victron see both the charge from the SCC to the batteries and the draw to the grid at the same time and report the difference as Ah gained or lost? Does the 6048 just draw from the battery until it reaches the recharge volts setting and then starts to recharge the batteries? If that's the case, where does the 1.5kw from the SCC go while the system is in float other than lto the oads/grid? At the time I was checking the monitor and SCP, my system loads were less than 300 watts, so there was 1.2kwatts available for maintaining the battery while it was selling to the grid.:confused:
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_B
    Joe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

    Dusty,

    Sounds like you found the problem. The Victron shunt should be in the negative lead of the bank after all the loads and chargers.

    With regard to the Victron, the two most important things about keeping the meter accurate are the CEF (Charge Efficiency Factor) and the tail current. I have FLA batteries and my CEF is set to 75%. The tail current determines when the meter decides when the batteries are fully charged.

    In my case, I set the CEF a little low and let the tail current sync the meter so what I see is the SOC rises to about 97% and then jumps to 100% because the meter saw a low tail current and resynched. This keeps me from having to manually resync at regular intervals.

    Joe
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    Dusty,

    Sounds like you found the problem. The Victron shunt should be in the negative lead of the bank after all the loads and chargers.

    With regard to the Victron, the two most important things about keeping the meter accurate are the CEF (Charge Efficiency Factor) and the tail current. I have FLA batteries and my CEF is set to 75%. The tail current determines when the meter decides when the batteries are fully charged.

    In my case, I set the CEF a little low and let the tail current sync the meter so what I see is the SOC rises to about 97% and then jumps to 100% because the meter saw a low tail current and resynched. This keeps me from having to manually resync at regular intervals.

    Joe

    I hope I did find it, but I'm pretty confident that'll fix my problem.

    The tail current is set to 2.0 (default) for now, and I'm hoping to get the CEF from Optima today. At least I can enter the Peukert value, so that's half the battle. Did you change the tail current to something less than default?
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

    Joe, I have another Victron question for you:

    How long a data cable are you using for your Victron? The unit came with a short cable, so I ordered a 100' RJ-12 cable and routed it through my crawlspace. When I connected the cable to the Victron, it would not power up. Perhaps 100' is too long a run, or the cable is faulty. I've ordered new connectors, and I'll trim the cable to the shortest possible length, but I was curious if you are using such a long cable without any problems.

    -Dusty
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

    From Victron Energy:

    "At 12vdc app. 20-25 Mrt At 24vdc. app 25-35 Mrt"

    He also confirmed that 100' should be no problem for a 48v system, so the cable is suspect. Once the connectors arrive I'll try to trim the cable. I have an RJ-45 cable tester, and I'll see if it supports RJ12 too. Not sure about that.

    -Dusty
    Dusty wrote: »
    Joe, I have another Victron question for you:

    How long a data cable are you using for your Victron? The unit came with a short cable, so I ordered a 100' RJ-12 cable and routed it through my crawlspace. When I connected the cable to the Victron, it would not power up. Perhaps 100' is too long a run, or the cable is faulty. I've ordered new connectors, and I'll trim the cable to the shortest possible length, but I was curious if you are using such a long cable without any problems.

    -Dusty
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    Dusty,

    Sounds like you found the problem. The Victron shunt should be in the negative lead of the bank after all the loads and chargers.

    With regard to the Victron, the two most important things about keeping the meter accurate are the CEF (Charge Efficiency Factor) and the tail current. I have FLA batteries and my CEF is set to 75%. The tail current determines when the meter decides when the batteries are fully charged.

    In my case, I set the CEF a little low and let the tail current sync the meter so what I see is the SOC rises to about 97% and then jumps to 100% because the meter saw a low tail current and resynched. This keeps me from having to manually resync at regular intervals.

    Joe

    Yup, that was the problem. Now when I'm selling to the grid, the Victron shows a positive current instead of negative. It'll be interesting to see what it reads after a day of full sun, but today my area's in for rain all day.

    -Dusty
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_B
    Joe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

    Glad you got it working, now that you have an accurate battery meter you will see just how bad the XW metering system is....
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    Glad you got it working, now that you have an accurate battery meter you will see just how bad the XW metering system is....

    Once I get the meter relocated to where the SCP is, then I'll be able to tell....I ordered an R12 cable tester to check the 100' cable before I cut it shorter. With luck it'll just be a bad connector.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_B
    Joe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Dusty wrote: »
    Once I get the meter relocated to where the SCP is, then I'll be able to tell....I ordered an R12 cable tester to check the 100' cable before I cut it shorter. With luck it'll just be a bad connector.

    I am not so sure that a standard data cable has thee same wiring as the one from Victron, you should check the one that came with it before you blow it up.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?

    The original cable that came with the Victron is a CAT5E with RJ12 connectors. The 100' cable is not CAT5E but has RJ12 connectors. I never thought that the wires would be connected differently to the connectors--I considered RJ12 to be a standard that they would both follow. But you've got a point. I'll compare the pinouts once the RJ12 tester arrives. Thanks for the heads up!
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Joe_B
    Joe_B Solar Expert Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Dusty wrote: »
    Joe, I have another Victron question for you:

    When I connected the cable to the Victron, it would not power up.
    -Dusty

    I hope that you have not blown it up already...
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    I hope that you have not blown it up already...


    No, thank goodness. I reconnected the short cable that came with it, and it powered right up.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.
  • Dusty
    Dusty Solar Expert Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    Re: 6048- reducing sell amps because of a small battery bank--will it work?
    Joe_B wrote: »
    I hope that you have not blown it up already...

    The RJ12 cable I ordered only had 4 wires connected, which is why the Victron monitor didn't power up. I've ordered a new cable which should solve the problem.
    XW6048, 3.4KW PV, Grid-Tied, always tweaking.