Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

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Limon
Limon Registered Users Posts: 7
Hello everyone,

I've been reading posts on your site and hope you'll be willing to share some opinions on my proposed system upgrade.

I've grown tired of my propane refrigerator, and want to convert my old 12v system to a higher watt 24v system to run an electric refrigerator. I don't own the 'fridge yet, but Energy Star says "311 KWH/YR".

My plan is to get a Magnum 4000w sine-wave inverter, some new panels, and more batteries, while re-using the Xantrex PWM charge controller.

1). I like the Magnum 4000 because from 2000w to 4000w is only a few $100 and I can grow with 4000w.

2).Talesun 250watt TP660M-250 panels are available at $1.10/watt. I've got room for 4 or 6 of these, but 30.1Vmp may be too low.

3). Currently I have 4ea. U.S. Battery L16, 6 volt, 380 amp hr. batteries. I'd like to add 4 more for 760 amp hrs @ 24v.

Off-grid home is in Southern Baja, where even on the 2 days it rained last year, panels are able to put out some power.

Thanks in advance for any comments,

Comments

  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee
    Limon wrote: »
    2).Talesun 250watt TP660M-250 panels are available at $1.10/watt. I've got room for 4 or 6 of these, but 30.1Vmp may be too low.

    3). Currently I have 4ea. U.S. Battery L16, 6 volt, 380 amp hr. batteries. I'd like to add 4 more for 760 amp hrs @ 24v.

    Welcome to the forum. Your upgrade plans seem pretty well thought out.
    Get a MPPT controller. Then you can use the talesun panels in series (or series/parallel).
    If you keep your present panels and PWM you may be able to reconfigure them and use them in parallel with your new panels and new controller.

    It is generally a bad idea to add new batteries to old. Start out by reconfiguring your four L16 in series. At the end of their life then buy a bigger battery bank.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Limon
    Limon Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    Thanks vtMaps, for the quick response.

    If you had to make a choice, and lived in my area, would you spend the $500 on MPPT controller or 2 more panels?

    Limon
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    Welcome to the forum.

    1). The size of the inverter governs the maximum load you can handle at any given time. Whereas there's nothing wrong with the Magnum 4kW unit, do you need that capacity? I run a refrigerator and two water pumps and, and, and ... most of the time my 3.5 kW Outback churns less than 500 Watts of power. The capacity is there for the motor start surges.

    2). Your suspicion on the panels is correct: 30.1 Vmp is not going to work on a 24 Volt system. Given heat & wiring losses, the Voltage at the battery may well be below 28.8 which would be insufficient for charging. If you use flooded batteries EQ would be out of the question, as that is usually done at 31 Volts.

    3). Have you got an actual Watt hour capacity in mind? If you can define your loads better to begin with it makes it much easier to calculate battery bank size and the amount of panel needed to recharge same. The four 380 Amp hour 6 Volts you have now would provide over 4 kW hours maximum, and that's nearly twice what I use. 760 Amp hours would require either an 80 Amp controller or two smaller ones. Maybe you'd like to stay with the existing controller if possible?

    To that end, for the 380 Amp hour batteries you'd probably want an array of about 1200 Watts. The 760 Amp hours would want twice that. Also, if the first set of batteries is more than a year old you won't want to be adding new ones to it; they'll just get "dragged down" by the already aged batteries.

    The 24 Volt system is a good idea. Depending on what kind of loads you've got and panels for recharging you may not have to add too much to your existing system. Mine runs on 320 Amp hours, but is getting an upgrade this year due to certain people not following instructions when they're there on their own.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee
    Limon wrote: »
    If you had to make a choice, and lived in my area, would you spend the $500 on MPPT controller or 2 more panels?

    Go for the MPPT controller, and add more panels in the future when you upgrade your battery bank.
    Reason: With a new controller you can continue to use your present panels with your old controller (I assume that you can reconfigure your old panels to charge a 24 volt battery bank).

    With two arrays and two controllers you may have some interesting options... are you set up in such a way that the larger array can be southeast and the smaller array southwest?

    BTW, my system supports both a fridge and chest freezer off four L16 batteries, and I have less sun than you. My fridge & freezer combined draw less than 1 kwh per day.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Limon
    Limon Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    Thanks Cariboocoot,
    Mine runs on 320 Amp hours, but is getting an upgrade this year due to certain people not following instructions when they're there on their own.
    . Cracks me up! Unnamed others in my household like to stand in front of the fridge, with the door open taking in the view; hence my need for the electric upgrade.

    I'm choosing the Magnum because I can get it for $1200, otherwise I believe 2KW would probably cover my guessed new needs. I don't have the new refrigerator yet, so I can't plug in a Kill-a-Watt, but with the door open to the 100 degree heat half the day, I figure about 1400 watt hours. The rest of my demand is just a couple of CFL's and the fan at night.

    Current batteries are only a few months old.

    Any other thoughts or panel recommendations?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    Check the inverter idle current between models and ratings. A large inverter can really suck the current if supplying light loads (smaller inverters are around 6-10 watts or so, large inverters 20-40 watts or so).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Limon
    Limon Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    Thanks vtMaps,

    My current system of 12 year old mismatched panels is doomed to be 12v forever, but the panels are on a tracking pole so I certainly could leave it in place, and just wire in the new 24v system separately to run the new fridge and whatever we add in the future.

    My main concern is that in my hot climate, will I get enough advantages from the MPPT controller vs. more panels/batteries. Although, what I'm reading here, is that I have enough batteries and 4 large panels should be enough.
  • Limon
    Limon Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    Bill, Specs say it uses 7 watts in search mode. Seems high but I like the price of the inverter. Do you have any recommendations for pure sine-wave inverters in the $1000 to $1500 range?

    Thanks, Limon
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    re the MPPT question, Look at it this way, the MPPT will allow much more flexibility now and in the future vs staying with the PWM CC..

    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    Search mode is when the inverter turns on for a couple 120 VAC cycles and sees if there is >~6-8 watt of AC load... If there is, the inverter stays on. If not, turns off and tries again ~1 second later.

    For example:

    4kW inverter: No Load (120 VAC output): 27 watts

    Their 12 volt 2kW product is about the same at ~25 watts. So, not much difference:cry:.

    Depends on what your power profile will look like--But if 24x7 power is needed:
    • 24 hours * 27 watts * * 1/0.52 system efficiency * 1/4 hours of sun = 311 watts of solar panel just to "idle" the inverter 24x7 for ~9 months of year (winter may need genset).

    Given you are in Baja California--perhaps you can look at 5+ hours of sun per day minimum.

    In any case, just one of the "vampire" loads you may need to consider when designing your system.

    Some of today's refrigerators need AC power 24x7 for the electronics/defrost timers--So running any inverter 24 hours per day becomes a significant hit on system power requirements.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    So you are building an entirely new 24 Volt system?

    This Magnum http://www.solar-electric.com/maenms4040wa.html uses 25 Watts "running". This power consumption needs to be included with your calculations.

    The search or stand-by mode is not necessarily a big power savings. I don't bother with it on my Outback because the 'frige runs 1/3 of the time (20 minutes out of every hour). During daylight hours it needs to be on all the time to supply the computer equipment, and into the evening for lights. Overall the difference works out to something like 10 Amp hours per day.

    Coming up with the Watt hours used daily will be a big help. My system runs approximately 2.4 kW hours per day. This is roughly 100 Amp hours on 24 Volts, and 320 Amp hours gives me a 33% DOD. The plan for this year is to push that to 450 Amp hours, just in case.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee
    Limon wrote: »
    Unnamed others in my household like to stand in front of the fridge, with the door open taking in the view;
    If you can handle a chest type fridge your problem is solved. There are some threads on this forum about converting a chest freezer to a fridge. They can be incredibly efficient... you might not even need to upgrade your electric system.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Limon
    Limon Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    The converted chest freezer makes way too much sense for me; 99% of the time I'm just pulling a cold soda out. Unfortunately, only the dog agrees with me, those with the over riding veto say "no way in my house..."
  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee

    I think the magnum is a good choice for your situation. I'd suggest also getting the ME-ARC (not the ME-RC) and the ME-BMK.

    Alex
  • 65DegN
    65DegN Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭
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    Re: Off-grid 24V system advice for newbee
    2).Talesun 250watt TP660M-250 panels are available at $1.10/watt. I've got room for 4 or 6 of these, but 30.1Vmp may be too low.

    If you have limited space for solar panels your situation is prime for an MPPT controller.