Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
One of my clients called about 2 surge protectors I obtained for him. I told him to do the install as it was pretty easy just replacing 2 Delta's.

My mistake (I think) was telling him to replace the Delta's wire for wire. He hooked up the 48V XW as the Delta was with Red going to (- DC)
and Black going to (+) DC. This is wrong from the manual and there was no LED lit. He then reversed it and he says that he thinks he can see something in one of them in a dark room.

The manual does not tell one how to hook up a 120VAC (non-split) system and he has hooked it up as the Delta was wired with the black going to (120 vac only Black) and the red goin to neutral / white. The manual does not say how many of the 2 led's should be lit. One is lit and is a nice brightness.

I went on line and the manual really could use a section on how to test this thing. How many of the 2 led's should be lit and what brightness at any angle they should be. If he did damage the unit should the manual not tell an installer that these units can be damaged if the hots are reversed. This really should be clear if someone is replacing a Delta where as long as green goes to ground there is no issue with polarity

They were bought from the store here last week. My client wants to know what to do?:confused:

Thanks,
Dave
"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
 http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
E-mail [email protected]

Comments

  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

    From the manual:
    4. Connect phase conductors.
    [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The phase wires are black and red in color. The orientation is not critical to the operation. (AC) With the POWER OFF, connect one wire to AC HOT IN (line) and other wire to AC HOT OUT (load) as shown in [/FONT][/FONT]fig. 1.2 [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](DC) connect the red wire to PV + and the black wire to PV - or battery minus. PV combiners get installed as shown in [/FONT][/FONT]figure 1.1

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

    Dave did you look here? http://midnitesolar.com/smf_forum/index.php?board=13.0
     
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  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

    i can't comment on possible damages realized due to reversing the leads, but with the green wire at -v and either of the other 2 at +v it should light an led be it a pv as the source or a battery. if both of the other 2 wires are put to +v and the green at -v this should light both leds. failure to light one of the leds would lead me to conclude that section has possibly failed. maybe one of the guys at midnite could confirm or deny a failure and it seems to me i remember reading about this condition on the midnite forum.

    i agree that telling one how to test the spd would be a good thing, but their instructions are clear enough on how to install it. it is simple, yes. idiot proof it is not and nothing personal is meant by that.
  • halfcrazyhalfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

    Wiring the SPD's is pretty straight forward. On a dc system I use the Red for +, The Black with the white heat shrink installed for - and the green to ground. for 120vac only and just a single 120 leg I twist the Black and Red together for that single hot leg.

    The easiest way to picture this is to look at the Black wire and the Red wire as 2 separate surge protectors. So you simply install the black or red wire on what you want protected and the green to earth ground.

    The SPD's will not be damaged by reverse polarity, The Blue LED's are bright and will be present when ever there is a +9V differential between earth ground and the black or red wire. To test the SPD115 or 300 simply apply 9volts or greater between the black and green or red and green wires.

    So to recap on a PV combiner for instance with Red to PV+, Black colored White to PV- and green to earth Ground you will have only one LED lit as the Black/White side is at the same potential as the earth ground do to the GFP circuit.

    Ths SPD600 is a little different it is designed for the transformer less inverters in the grid tie world. It uses the voltage potential between the Red and Black to light the LED. So to test a SPD600 apply 9 volts or more between the Red and Black and one LED will lite, Reverse the Red and Black and the other LED will lite.

    I will look the manual over and see if I can add diagrams for all possible installs.

    Ryan
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    Wiring the SPD's is pretty straight forward. On a dc system I use the Red for +, The Black with the white heat shrink installed for - and the green to ground. for 120vac only and just a single 120 leg I twist the Black and Red together for that single hot leg.

    The easiest way to picture this is to look at the Black wire and the Red wire as 2 separate surge protectors. So you simply install the black or red wire on what you want protected and the green to earth ground.

    The SPD's will not be damaged by reverse polarity, The Blue LED's are bright and will be present when ever there is a +9V differential between earth ground and the black or red wire. To test the SPD115 or 300 simply apply 9volts or greater between the black and green or red and green wires.

    So to recap on a PV combiner for instance with Red to PV+, Black colored White to PV- and green to earth Ground you will have only one LED lit as the Black/White side is at the same potential as the earth ground do to the GFP circuit.

    Ths SPD600 is a little different it is designed for the transformer less inverters in the grid tie world. It uses the voltage potential between the Red and Black to light the LED. So to test a SPD600 apply 9 volts or more between the Red and Black and one LED will lite, Reverse the Red and Black and the other LED will lite.

    I will look the manual over and see if I can add diagrams for all possible installs.

    Ryan

    So you are saying that my client did not damage the device and it is bad? Can I get an RMA or will Wind/Sun take care of me?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

    I doubt that the device is bad. Of the 100+ that we have sold, never seen a bad unit. In fact, less than 10% of anything that we have returned as bad or defective actually is. The customer can get an RMA and return it if he wants to, but I would make sure the customer actually knows how to hook it up and check it first.
  • halfcrazyhalfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

    Dave
    The AC one is fine as he said that had a bright LED. One thing I have seen a few times is people having floating systems with no reference to ground usually do to no GFP and an isolated DC -. In these cases there is frequently no voltage potential between earth ground and DC+. What I would suggest for the customer is a quick test of the SPD. A very simple test is touch the green wire to the negative and the red or black wire to the positive of a 12 volt battery. If the Customer feels it is defective have them feel free to call or email me at MidNite and I will work with them to remedy the issue.

    Ryan
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    Dave
    The AC one is fine as he said that had a bright LED. One thing I have seen a few times is people having floating systems with no reference to ground usually do to no GFP and an isolated DC -. In these cases there is frequently no voltage potential between earth ground and DC+. What I would suggest for the customer is a quick test of the SPD. A very simple test is touch the green wire to the negative and the red or black wire to the positive of a 12 volt battery. If the Customer feels it is defective have them feel free to call or email me at MidNite and I will work with them to remedy the issue.


    Ryan

    Thank-you Ryan for posting a usefull response as was your previous one! I got a call from my customer that he shut down the charge controllers (to avoid tripping GFCI) and shorted system ground to battery (-) and one blue light came on.

    Is there a way to test the other LED without removing the device and doing the 12V test? Should they both be on in the test he did in the system?

    Obviously you folks have some work to do with the manual or is this Beta testing?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • halfcrazyhalfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

    Dave
    I usually say "It is a safe assumption if the DC + LED works the DC- side of the SPD is fine". This of course is not an absolute but if a system took a strike that could wipe out the SPD I would be almost certain it would take out the GFP and other stuff and at that point I would look closer at the SPD.

    We do need to add to the manual stuff like reverse polarity safe, LED's visible when 9 volts or more is present between either hot leg and ground on the SPD and probably some more wiring diagrams.

    Ryan
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite surrge protector install did not go well

    Thanks Ryan! I did not think you would build an SPD that could be damaged in replacing a Delta wire for wire. This is my 20th year offgrid and 35th on somebodies electrical engineering staff. This stuff needs to be robust! I would add a section to the manual on your 12V test also. Build an inverter that can survive nearby lightning like an XW and I am yours!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

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