Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

techntrek
techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
Has anyone ordered one of the 220 volt versions of the Suresine? I noticed this in the Windsun store a few minutes ago. I assume the output is 220 single-phase. Just curious if someone is using one for a specialized load and can give a review - maybe a small soft-start well pump?
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Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    I believe the 220 Volt version is 50 Hz for Europe/Caribbean/Africa/etc.--Another set of variables. :roll:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    When I looked at Morningstar's website, it infers (in the bigger black type) you could order either frequency. Although I just looked closer and they list the following model numbers in smaller type near the bottom: SI-300-115V-UL (60 Hz), SI-300-220V (50 Hz), SI-300-115V (60 Hz).

    So, looks like you are right - 220 V, 50 Hz only. Might still work for my intended application, I need to check...
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    Then again, I also noticed the website said it can be ordered in other configurations. I just sent them a message asking if 220 or 240 @ 60 Hz was possible.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    It might be as easy to order the 220 50Hz and change the oscillator (or have the factory change it) to 60Hz. Probably not much else has to change...

    Hmm, wonder if they just change a jumper on the internal transformer for 115/230 VAC switch?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    From early inspections of my SureSine 300's the Xformers appeared to be totally enclosed within an epoxy type material, with no sign of extra wires that might be used to switch voltage. I could of course be wrong, but that's what I remember. I had assumed at that time that a different Xformer was used in the 220V 50 Hz unit. In general, with 50 Hz transformers, more turns are required for equal voltage, a more substantial core, or a combo of both, compared to the "same" transformer designed for 60 Hz. Otherwise the transformer will run hotter (warmer) with more losses. A 50 Hz Xformer usually runs cooler on 60 Hz.
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    Received a reply today - but the sales staff didn't know and said they were cc'ing their technical staff for the answer. Seems to be something the sales staff should know, IMO.
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    The final response: The 220V SureSine inverter is only available in 50Hz and is the highest voltage available. The 220V/50Hz is used primarily for European installations, along with limited Canadian applications.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version
    techntrek wrote: »
    ... along with limited Canadian applications.

    :confused: Thought we switched to 60 Hz back in the 1950's? Sure we did ... red trucks everywhere changing motors ...
    Must be they didn't make it to all the igloos. ;)
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    LOL. I didn't question their response, but I had the same thought.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    Probably Caribbean?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version
    :confused: Thought we switched to 60 Hz back in the 1950's? Sure we did ... red trucks everywhere changing motors ...
    Must be they didn't make it to all the igloos. ;)

    Not aware of us ever having had other than 60 hz here in Nova Scotia, other than perhaps some private installations. Newfoundland however was different in some parts of that Province. Some of the Pulp and Paper companies had their own hydro stations, spinning British 25 HZ generators. They supplied homes in the area where they could, and many of the homes had fridges with 25 Hz compressors. I assume also from England. I figure the flicker of light bulbs must have been quite noticeable. I remember hearing about people there having to replace their fridges when things were standardized to 60 Hz. Back in those days, other than lights, the only other things they'd have would be fridges and water pumps. I have no idea now what voltage they would have been running with the 25 Hz.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    Hey, is still have a 120 vDC genset, can't keep the motor running but when it does, it lights conventional bulbs just fine,, don't know why I would ever want to do that except to play,,

    Tony
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    25 Hz was a standard used in many parts of the world - in the early years of electric power. It has certain advantages for motors. I remember the Waterwheel Antique Shop near where I grew up had a 25 Hz generator at the house turned by the wheel. Long out of date, but the owner kept it running to light lights as a novelty. That's probably all gone now.

    Canada used to have a mixture of frequencies and Voltages, as did most everywhere until "standards" were settled on. The most recent EU standards were a simple adjustment to the specs so that many varied power supplies could be deemed "acceptable". Europe still has some interesting assorted outlets. ;) As for former USSR countries and other more far-flung lands ... it's still a jungle.

    Let's not forget that the US started with Edison's localized DC generators. Were it not for Tesla and the power of Westinghouse ... Who knows? But surely Canada is all on with 60 Hz power now?

    And Bill, it's pretty hard to mistake Canada for the Caribbean. Trust me on this! :p
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    Hey Cariboocoot, I see you made two identical posts on 25 Hz. Would that be one post for each of the two phases of 25 Hz? Just wondering. :D:D:D
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version
    Hey Cariboocoot, I see you made two identical posts on 25 Hz. Would that be one post for each of the two phases of 25 Hz? Just wondering. :D:D:D

    No, that would be an Internet connection glitched caused by a weird alignment of satellite service, shared access with a Vista computer, and an attempted back-up via MozyPro.

    It happens. Hopefully the solution arrives tomorrow.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    As I understand, the original steel in the motors had lots of losses if you pushed it above 25 Hz... And many large industrial machines (steel rolling equipment, etc.) worked just fine with slower turning motors. Also there were concerns about standing waves in long distance transmission lines (supposedly in Germany, in times past, a local breaker tripped which caused a reflection in the 50 Hz power line back to the generator 500+ miles away--which caused lots of damage to the generation equipment--A refection in power can come back 180 degrees out of phase and look worse than a dead short, look like two generators runing 180 degrees out of phase).

    Some of the numbers may not have anything other than "round number" desires or fear of things spinning going too fast:
    Apr19-06, 01:00 AM

    Not to dig up a dead thread but I read a biography on Tesla 2 years ago and remember reading about the 50hz vs 60hz debate. Tesla intended his generators to be run at 60hz but the French operators (at the first ac generator in Europe) didn't want to speed up their machines, or something the like. From that point on every one just followed suit and didn't question, until now ;-)

    From the same thread, a good history of power:

    http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-53692.html
    Jerry H
    Apr28-06, 10:43 AM

    Gentlemen:

    There are really two different questions in voiced in this:

    1) Why the US (and most of the Americas) uses 60 Hz and Europe (and the rest of the world) uses 50 Hz?
    2) Why does the US uses 110 V (now set at 120 V) and Europe uses 220 V (now set to 230 V)?

    It does seem to be a conglomeration of historical reasons, including state of the art back in 1890’s, which company had a head start, and standardization. Some history:

    George Westinghouse did his original engineering using 133 1/3 Hz. Westinghouse had an steam engine driven alternator set running at 2000 rpm (By 1886 mechanical engineers liked to have steam engines in integral numbers of rpm) and with 8 poles the set produced 8000 cycles per minute or 133 1/3 Hz. This was good for lighting as there was no flicker but it turned out it was too high for motors later developed.

    The earliest experiments (1886 and 1887) used belt driven generators and tended toward high frequencies like 133 1/3 Hz. This suited illumination, which was practically all that alternating current was used for at that time. By 1889 and 1890 direct driven generators were coming on line. They were more robust but with lower rotation speeds they encouraged lower frequencies.

    In the early years of ac there were many frequencies: each engineering team seemed to pick their own. Early frequencies in the US were 133 1/3, 125, 83 1/3, 66 2/3, 60, 50, 40, 30, 25 Hz. When Tesla joined Westinghouse, it was using 133 1/3 Hz. Tesla insisted upon 60 Hz because his ac induction motor was designed for 60 Hz and apparently wouldn’t work at 133 1/3 Hz.

    On the Westinghouse Museum website it says that G. Westinghouse assigned his engineers Stillwell, Shallenberger, Schmid, and Scott to find a good frequency. Practical considerations of connecting alternating generators to reciprocating engines then in use demanded a lower frequency than 133 Hz.
    Before the end of 1892 they chose 2 frequencies: 60 Hz for lighting and 30 Hz where power was to be converted to DC.

    Why did Tesla/ Westinghouse engineering team choose 60 Hz? If it was Tesla that was the driving force, various biographies of Tesla declare different theories ranging from Tesla “thought it was the fundamental frequency of the universe” to “… considered the natural earth had a frequency of 10 Hz and doing experiments with 8 to 20 Hz and 20 to 40 Hz and finally 40 to 100 Hz; he decided that 60 Hz was safe.” It doesn’t seem to have been a desire to do accurate clocks because Henry Warren didn’t patent the synchronized clock until 1916 long after the frequency was chosen. Although Warren was diligent in getting utilities to have tight specs on frequency this didn’t happen until into the 1920’s.

    Back in the early 1890’s Westinghouse was involved in bidding electrical equipment for the Niagara Falls power project. However the Cataract Company (in charge of the Niagara Falls project) had already selected hydraulic turbines running at 250 rpm. So if a 16-pole generator were chosen the frequency would be 33 1/3 Hz and if a 12-pole machine were chosen then the frequency would be 25 Hz. The project consultant proposed an 8-pole generator or 16 2/3 Hz. The compromise was 25 Hz. At the time lower frequencies were easier to handle on transmission lines. Another reason is that the Steel industry liked 25 Hz because of huge slow speed induction rollers, which had a low power factor for 60 Hz and worked better at 25 Hz. Niagara Falls generated 25 Hz way into the 20th century. The website says that the Westinghouse Company later wished it had forced through 30 Hz.

    By 1910 it looked there would be two frequencies in North America, 25Hz for transmission and heavy industry that needed dc or slow moving heavy machinery and 60 Hz for lighting (less flicker) and general use.

    There was an effort by GE to introduce 40 Hz as a compromise between 25 Hz and 60 Hz in the 1890’s but it was too late to overtake the 60 Hz and 25 Hz infrastructures already in place although there were some 40 Hz installations. Even so most installations in the US were done in 60 Hz after Westinghouse and GE cross licensed their patents.

    Development of high-speed turbines instead of slow reciprocating machinery and later developments of the rotary converter that worked well at 60 Hz made it easy to shift everything to 60 Hz. By 1920 most of the problems associated with 60 Hz transmission had been solved so that there was no longer any advantage of transmitting 25 Hz over 60 Hz. That seems to be why the US is 60 Hz.

    Germany took the lead in Europe of developing electrical power (primarily Emil Rathenau of AEG) and AEG seems to have used 50 Hz from day one. In 1891 AEG had demonstrated power delivery over long distances using 50 Hz. I don’t know why AEG chose 50 Hz. Did the penchant for integer rpm help influence AEG for 3000 rpm and 50 Hz as opposed to 3600 rpm and 60 Hz? Did the preference for preferred numbers influence the choice of 50 Hz over 60 Hz? Did Tesla’s influence pull Westinghouse to choose 60 Hz and resultant 3600 rpm over 50 Hz and 3000 rpm? Europe was even more fragmented in the early days than the US. In 1918 in London alone there were 70 electric authorities with 50 different types of systems and 10 different frequencies and 24 different voltages. But by the 1920’s and 1930’s more and more of Europe was changing to or working with 50 Hz.

    As for voltages both Europe and the US seemed to have begun with about 100 to 110 Volts DC because of Edison’s success with replacing gas lights with electric lamps. Although many inventors worked on electric lights, generators and electrical systems, Edison was one of the first and was successful in putting together whole systems not just the pieces. Edison picked 110 VDC because that was the voltage he needed to get enough light out of his bulbs to compete with common gas lamps of the time and yet not blow the filaments in his bulbs too soon.

    The Berlin Electric Works (utility owned by AEG) changed from 110 V to 220 V starting in about 1899 to enlarge the capacity of their distribution system since the city (Berlin) was already wired 2 wires. They were probably changing from dc to ac at the time also. They paid for their customers to change their lighting and motors to 220 V and saved on the cost of copper by avoiding having to add more wiring. This spread throughout Germany and later Europe but didn’t take hold in the US.

    I wonder if the residue from the bitter conflict between Edison and Westinghouse about the safety of AC vs. DC spilled over into not going above 110 volts for residential users even after Edison’s forces conceded the need for AC.

    A lot of this information comes from Thomas Hughes Networks of Power : Electrification in Western Society, 1880-1930 and Benjamin Lamme Technical Story of Frequencies IEEE transactions 37 ( 1918 ) 60. Benjamin Lamme was chief engineer for Westinghouse in the early 1900’s.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    Thanks for that, Bill.
    As we can see it's not all strictly scientific! :D
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Morningstar Suresine - 220 volt version

    Thanks BB! Great reading! I had forgotten that Niagara Falls started out 25 Hz.
    Very interesting Hz and voltage history!