Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

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Johnboy777
Johnboy777 Registered Users Posts: 19
Greetings,

I am looking to build a very small system to handle limited power requirements over short periods (short blackout periods of up to 3 - 5 hours), as well as a worst case scenario (2+ weeks) for 'emergency preparedness’, so I want solar as well as a backup power.

No refrigerators, hairdryers, furnace blowers or microwaves (I have 6 - 100 gal. propane tanks--and a 30,000 btu radiate heater-- for emergency heat, as well as a basement wood burner).

I plan to have an EU2000 on hand as well.

I live at latitude 41deg.

Thanks for the help and constructive criticism.

All I need to use is:

20" LCD TV 2-3 hrs per day
6 - 12v LED lights---4 hrs per day
Laptop---2 hrs per day, Max
Cell Phone---charge (1 hour per day)
Flashlight---Charge
Walkie-talkie---charge

Regards,
John H.

..

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    Welcome to the forum.

    I'm going to suggest that the very first thing you do is get a Kill-A-Watt meter (about $30) and measure the actual consumption of the things you want to keep running during power outages. It's worth the investment to have real load numbers to work from rather than try to guestimate it from manufacturers' labels.

    This is quite a popular topic around here, so I'll direct you to the latest thread which has some links to other such projects: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?14267-building-small-solar-generator

    It's a good read. :D
  • Johnboy777
    Johnboy777 Registered Users Posts: 19
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    Thanks, Cariboocoot, appreciate the information - I'll go through it this PM.

    My goals are mostly related to EP-emergency preparedness-and low to no maintenance. I want to set this thing up and forget about it, for the most part. I don't want to tinker around with it, that's no fun for me. This is a must-have sys. from my perspective.

    From what limited knowledge I have, I was thinking of a 140w panel and 106 AH AGM batt., with a 300W or 600W inverter.

    I was thinking of starting here:
    600 Watt Backup Kit With 56 Amp-hour Battery
    http://www.solar-electric.com/bakitwi56amb.html

    and sizing up to a 106AH batt.
    SunXtender 12 Volt 104 Amp-Hour AGM Deep Cycle Solar Battery
    http://www.solar-electric.com/pvx-1295.html


    John
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    i'm going to generalize here that you have roughly 300w draw over a 5hr max period of time per day for 1500wh. so you don't draw more than 50% of the battery capacity to help preserve battery life you need to at least double this to 3000wh in battery capacity. 3000wh/12v=250ah battery capacity. this is closer to the pvx2580l (258ah) and would only cover 1 day of use, a bit more if you conserved. the charger and other items are fine except that battery needs upscaled.

    now the pv needs only to float charge the battery as i recommend any bulk charges coming from either the grid or the generator. this is generally 1-2% of the battery capacity, but there's nothing wrong with even more headroom if you ever go even higher in battery capacity. this is 2.5-5a delivered by the pv and allowing for inefficiencies it would be 3.25-6.5a imp. the imp of the pv you propose is higher and will not hurt anything and could allow for a bigger battery bank as well if you so chose to do so.

    for short term the grid can recharge the battery when it comes back on, but the generator may also be employed to do this as well. the pv inline will add some charge current as well and could help speed up the charge. for cases of many days you will need to use the generator as the pv will not supply enough to actually recharge the battery.

    btw, you will need to get a charge controller as agm batteries don't tolerate higher voltages that a pv can give very well.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    Some of the equipment you may want:

    Kill-a-Watt (120 VAC 15 amp power/energy measurement--great for conservation and AC off grid power estimates)
    DC amp*hour/watt*hour meter (good for smaller DC applications)
    Battery Monitor (and Victron brand) (good for monitoring the charging/discharging of your system--almost a necessity for sealed/AGM type batteries)
    DC Current Clamp Meter (here is a cheap/good enough meter for debugging solar)

    Regarding using the smaller genset (I am a big fan of small/inverter-generator systems--can be very fuel efficient if you keep your daily power needs low):

    Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator.

    Propane conversion for Honda EU6500i?
    Auto Choke/ Propane Conversion
    Selecting the correct backup generator
    which generator is best

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Johnboy777
    Johnboy777 Registered Users Posts: 19
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    Well, using the Wind-Sun chart, I came up with between 625 - 650 daily watts, which I assume is the same as Wh (watt hours)...is this correct?

    So according to the formula (thanks niel) that means; 650/12 = 54 x2 = 108 Ah or an 104 Ah Battery

    1. TV ---70W X 3 hrs =210
    2. Laptop---50W X 3 hrs = 150
    3. Cell Phone (charge) ---5 W X 3 hrs = 15
    4. Walkie-Talkie--- 5W X 3 hrs = 15
    5. LED Lights ---10W X 5 hrs X 5 Lights = 250

    Total 640

    Do I need two 140W solar panels (modules)? or will one be enough?

    Thanks for all of the help, John


    ...
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    The answer is in Watt*Hours:
    • TV ---70W X 3 hrs =210 Watt*Hours

    It is a very common mistake--we are all used to Miles per Hour, Gallons per Hour, etc. as being a "Rate". And multiplying by hours gives us mile, gallons, etc.

    Watts is array a "rate" (Joules per Second)

    So, with the above, Watts~Miles per gallon, multiply by time we get Watt*Hours (~gallons used).

    Using PV Watts for Youngstown OH, at ~41 degrees from laying flat:
    Month    Solar Radiation (kWh/m 2/day)
    1      2.17     
    2      3.05     
    3      4.12     
    4      4.61     
    5      4.95     
    6      5.20     
    7      5.21     
    8      5.21     
    9      4.21     
    10      3.84     
    11      2.24     
    12      1.93     
    Year      3.90      
    

    For 9 months of the year, February at 3.05 hours of average "full sun" per day, and ~52% end to end system efficiency, to keep even you will need:
    • 640 WH per day * 1/0.52 system eff * 1/3.05 hours of sun per day = 404 watts of solar panel minimum (February-October)

    We also like to size the solar array to the battery bank... Anywhere from 5% to 13% of rated charge is OK. AGM work well towards 5% rate of charge (and up to 13% or higher). Flooded cell should be greater than 5% for various reasons. 10% is a good healthy amount of charging current:
    • 108 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 102 watts minimum
    • 108 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 203 watts nominal
    • 108 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel derating * 0.13 rate of charge = 264 watts max cost effective

    You are using a fairly small battery bank (1 day of autonomy)... So, the size of the solar array needed to keep up with the battery bank charging is smaller than your daily power usage. For an emergency system, using a smaller battery is OK because you are not after cycle life--So if you discharge to 50% or even 20% state of charge in an emergency--it is not going to cause the battery to die an early death for a few outages a year (your battery will likely "age out" instead of cycling out).

    Also, normally, we use ~4 hours per day of sun, but in Ohio, it looks like you don't have great sun, so you need a larger array to keep up with your loads.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Johnboy777
    Johnboy777 Registered Users Posts: 19
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    Thanks, BB.

    Sounds like a lot of panels - three 140W (26" X 60" each) modules for a 104 Ah AGM battery, but this is NE Ohio and the sun is AWOL pretty often.

    Here's where i am currently in my thought process - I have ordered a Kill-a-watt meter to confirm/double check everything before ordering:

    RV, Cabin Solar Kit With 420 Watts of DC Power and MPPT
    http://www.solar-electric.com/rvvankitwi42.html
    Price: $1,539.64

    600 Watt Backup Kit With 56 Amp-hour Battery
    http://www.solar-electric.com/bakitwi56amb.html
    w/ upgrade to SunXtender 12 Volt 104 Amp-Hour AGM
    Price: $732.00 +/-

    It's over my $2,000 solar/ back-up budget, but okay. This system is a minimal back up and long term solar emergency preparedness system for basic electronic equipment and minimal LED lighting (which is pretty nice, actually), if for some reason our infrastructure goes does for an extended period.

    If I find I don't have enough battery, after doing some testing - I can add another matching 104 Ah AGM, I imagine.

    I plan to have a 1000 Watt Yamaha or Honda propane converted gen/inverter on hand, as well.

    One great thing about propane long term (barring tank failure--I am using six new 100lbs tanks) is that it has a very long shelf life, burns cleaner and eliminates concerns about fuel (gasoline) storage problems over time.

    Thanks again for your help and kindness - I was amazed at the amount of collective knowledge here, very cool.

    As I mentioned, I just want to assemle a sys. (with a little headroom) for my most basic of needs in an emergency (short or long-term), and forget about it.

    John H.

    ...
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    Note that the "600 Watt Backup Kit With 56 Amp-hour Battery" does not include solar panels (of course, you can add panels+charge controller to the order or later when funds permit).

    Also, a 35 amp 120 VAC to 12 VDC charger may be too big for an eu1000i (900 watt) generator.

    And I would review the size of AC inverter you wish to use... A 600 watt inverter will drain a 56 AH battery bank in less than one hour at 600 watts. OK for short/heavy loads (running an electric drill or as a UPS allowing to to finish up your work and shut down the computer)--But a bit overkill if you want to run lights/radio/charge small battery devices over a 10+ hour period (closer to 60 watt load than 600 watt load).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    bb has a good point in that if you never intend to use over 300w of power that the inverter may be downsized to something like the morningstar suresine 300. it may actually pay to assemble your own kit from individual components. it may not differ too far from what you've already chosen though.
  • Johnboy777
    Johnboy777 Registered Users Posts: 19
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System
    niel wrote: »
    bb has a good point in that if you never intend to use over 300w of power that the inverter may be downsized to something like the morningstar suresine 300. it may actually pay to assemble your own kit from individual components. it may not differ too far from what you've already chosen though.

    Good advice.

    i was thinking that it might be best with two 104 Ah AGM's from the get-go - one devoted to the 420W array, and one devoted to the backup sys.

    This way, if need be, for whatever reason, the two batteries can be linked together.

    Lateral integration – with each sys. having the ability to stand alone, simultaneously... or linked together.

    I don't want to downsize the inverter from 600W, on the off chance that for some unforeseen reason, I may need that much power for short periods of time. The extra power that it burns over a 300W, seems insignificant for the added benefit.

    Another thought is to have an additional battery charger for the 1000W gen/inverter - maybe a smaller 'Iota 15 Amp 12 Volt Regulated Battery Charger' for an incoming charge from the gererator. Does this make sense?

    Just a thought.

    .
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    why not get the pvx2120 instead of 2 1040t batteries? ok i think i know, it's a shipping issue. work your system to know its abilities once you get it together. if you find you need more battery capacity (and i think you might) then you should not wait too long as mixing old used batteries with a new one will drag the new one down to the level of the old ones.

    i just caught this,
    "one devoted to the 420W array, and one devoted to the backup sys."
    they should be one and the same. feed the solar charge power directly to your backups batteries and make it at least the 2 pvx1040 batteries with possibly a 3rd.
  • Johnboy777
    Johnboy777 Registered Users Posts: 19
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    There will be a lot of redundancy in my sys. - this may not make sense unless you look at this from an emergency preparedness perspective.

    Although I plan to test them thoroughly, at present, I see no reason to utilize the solar modules unless the grid goes down, for over a day or two.

    Normally, I’ll charge the batteries from the grid as if it were simply a backup sys. alone.

    The 1000W generator will run off of my propane tanks (preferred) or gasoline.

    The batteries can be either recharged via the array or the generator.

    My needs are minimal (electronic gear and emergency LED lights) only 650 Wh per day.

    Think of it as an insurance plan, for a very remote scenario. Like a one in a billion shot, when your car falls into the basement of your garage, which you never knew existed.

    CarinGarageMar2012.jpg
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    'remote' and 'one in a billion' sometimes go together :blush:
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Johnboy777
    Johnboy777 Registered Users Posts: 19
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System
    niel wrote: »
    why not get the pvx2120 instead of 2 1040t batteries? ok i think i know, it's a shipping issue. work your system to know its abilities once you get it together. if you find you need more battery capacity (and i think you might) then you should not wait too long as mixing old used batteries with a new one will drag the new one down to the level of the old ones..

    Right - I just received an email from a consultant that I had contacted, confirming that I needed 250 Ah worth of battery for 650 Wh. So it looks like three 1040t's to get where I need to be. Those single 250Ah AGM's, are just so frigging heavy - I'd like to avoid them, and use the smailler (UPS shippable) AGM's if possible.

    To be honest, I'm still amazed that I need three panels (420W) and 250 Ah of battery just to charge a few cell phones, some LED's, and a TV for a few hours. Wow.

    Thanks, Niel.

    John

    .
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    Yea, or a couple cups of gasoline:

    ~5,000 WH (5kWH) per gallon of gas (efficient near full load for genset):
    • 650 WH * 1/5,000 WH per 128 oz (1 gal) of gas = 16.64 Oz = 2 cups of gasoline

    ~3,000 WH (kWH) per gallon of gas (running a Honda eu2000i at 400 watt or 1/4 power load):
    • 650 WH * 1/3,000 WH per 28 oz of gas = 27.7 oz = 3.5 cups of gasoline

    Honda eu2000i running at 1,600 watts for 4 hours on 1.1 gallons of fuel (calculated fuel efficiency):
    • 1,600 WH * 4 hours * 1/1.1 gallons of fuel = 5,818 WH per gallon
    • 400 WH * 9.6 hours * 1/1.1 gallons of fuel = 3,491 WH per gallon

    Lead Acid batteries really do not store much energy by weight or volume... The great thing is you can "refill them with solar panels". May not be easy to find fuel with a wide spread power outage or storm/earthquake/etc. damage.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Small Sys. Requirements--Back up/Solar System

    250ah is exactly what i stated to you in post #4.;)

    you did not know you had a basement under your garage? that's a new one to me. maybe somebody left lots of money hidden in there? well you can hope can't you?:D