battery crap

ws9876
ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 448 ✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
If you look at the average cost of a large deep cycle 2 volt it seems to be about 1000$. This is for a plastic case, 2 thick lead plates with a small amount of pos/neg mineral ingredient difference, some poly bags that the pos plates sit in and some sulphuric acid and the terminals. I would guess that the factories cost for one unit is less than 150 dollars in parts and labor and their other overhead,bldg,insurance,pension,etc. Does it seem to anyone else that someone could very realistically start up a manufacture of these and sell them for a little more than half that price.Thats with dumping the excessive crap like pension and *ss kiss medical plans etc.There is Nothing about these that is worth the absurd prices that they are selling for. Its mostly American style profit excess.
· Share on Twitter

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: battery crap

    Agree. But have you checked the price of a haircut lately? Don't know about where you live, but it's not uncommon here to pay $50.00 for a 10 minute haircut. Our money is worthless. :cry:
    · Share on Twitter
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: battery crap

    i too agree.

    seems to me i may need to get some hair clippers and do it myself with the only style i would be qualified to do. crew cut.:cry:
    · Share on Twitter
  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: battery crap

    So screw the worker making the battery ?? Wow ! You sure it's the workers making the big money ??


    Thom
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
    · Share on Twitter
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: battery crap

    I think the cost is due to market forces, not to excessive profits. Just to be clear, I assume you're talking about the cost of the specialised 2V stationary cells like these: http://www.solar-electric.com/2voltbatteries.html
    If you compare them to forklift batteries of the same capacity then yes, they're much more expensive which I think is due to the much smaller market for these batteries and the fact that they're built differently, in particular the cell wall has to be stronger and survive without being put in a metal case like the forklift batts.

    One manufacturer on this side of the pond introduced a new type of 2V cell with the only difference to their standard cells being the cell wall construction. By using polypropylene they could reduce the price by 30%. Even so, it's still far more expensive than the save sized forklift battery.

    Regular 2V 1000Ah stationary cell: $562 http://www.hmsistemas.es/shop/catalog/tab-10-opzs-1000-p-146.html
    Poly cell wall from the same manufacturer: $403 http://www.hmsistemas.es/shop/catalog/tab-topzs-1000-p-241.html
    What I paid for 2V forklift cell (price adjusted to be the same as 1000ah): $230

    The comparison to forklift batts isn't completely fair though as they tend to be filled with a higher concentration electolyte 1.29 ish whereas the stationaries use 1.24 so could expect a longer life. Much less maintenance on the stationaries too, they typically recommend water them once every 2 years.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: battery crap

    You do all understand that "golf cart" type batteries are cheapest per Amp hour (compared to other deep cycle case sizes) due to the high volume of production and sales? When you don't build and sell as many L16's as T105's they automatically have higher overhead costs. Material & labour isn't as much of a factor as you might think when it comes to the per capacity price difference.
    · Share on Twitter
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: battery crap
    ws9876 wrote: »
    If you look at the average cost of a large deep cycle 2 volt it seems to be about 1000$. This is for a plastic case, 2 thick lead plates with a small amount of pos/neg mineral ingredient difference, some poly bags that the pos plates sit in and some sulphuric acid and the terminals. I would guess that the factories cost for one unit is less than 150 dollars in parts and labor and their other overhead,bldg,insurance,pension,etc. Does it seem to anyone else that someone could very realistically start up a manufacture of these and sell them for a little more than half that price.Thats with dumping the excessive crap like pension and *ss kiss medical plans etc.There is Nothing about these that is worth the absurd prices that they are selling for. Its mostly American style profit excess.
    Hard to believe you would want to forego health insurance and a pension. I have been retired 2 years now and can,t believe how all the people want to take our social security and pensions away. I paid while I was working, now it is your turn. remember, some day you might get old too!! :Dsolarvic:D
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: battery crap
    solarvic wrote: »
    remember, some day you might get old too!!

    Which, even though it has its downside, is still better than the alternative. ;)
    · Share on Twitter
  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: battery crap

    Shipping is a major cost factor for batteries too, and input costs (for metals, especially) have risen.

    It's a global market for something like batteries, and that market is pretty dang efficient, whatever we might think. If there were some huge profit to be made selling big 2v batteries to North Americans by undercutting all the other guys, it's pretty likely someone would have seen it and filled it by now.
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: battery crap

    Veering dangerously close to the fog line of the political lane. Be careful, or the ditch looms!

    Tony
    · Share on Twitter
  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: battery crap

    "seems to me i may need to get some hair clippers and do it myself with the only style i would be qualified to do. crew cut. "

    Ha Neil, been doing that for years. As the years passed and the forehead covered more of the skull I put on smaller and smaller clipper shoes. Almost down to the buzz cut now. It's so easy and cheap. $40 for a set of clippers.

    Why is it people whine about market prices? Battery manufacturers are all over the place, it's probably cost prohibitive to ship them from China or India, so what you get is good old free market supply and demand pricing (not dumping cheap stuff).
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: battery crap

    When I designed and installed my Battery racks I did it for 10, GC-2 size Batteries. In 1993 I bought my first set of Trojans T 105's for $50.00 each. ( $500 ) In 2000 They were pretty much shot, when I went to replace them they wanted $90.00 each. I bought 10 Deka's for $55.00 ea ( $550.00 ). In 2006 I bought 10 Dekas for $65.00 ea ( $650.00 ) I just bought 10 over the winter from Sams 10 at $78 ea.

    18 years for 1,200 AMP hrs bank for a total cost of $1,700 isn't that bad, less that $100 a year. You do lose capacity as they age, but they were all still working when I replaced them.

    So I am agreeing with with the Coot, GC-2's are hard to beat in the ROI department. To me L-16's are way overpriced for what you get in capacity and any longevity , if any.
    · Share on Twitter
  • ws9876
    ws9876 Solar Expert Posts: 448 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: battery crap

    got a few sentiments though.... I didnt think I could get a golf cart for 3-400... Where is the de facto cheapest place for those..??
    · Share on Twitter
  • 2manytoyz
    2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: battery crap

    My last set of GC batts also came from Sam's Club. Been a couple of years since I bought the last pair.

    Attachment not found.

    Attachment not found.

    I have 8 such batteries, the oldest are a tad over 5 years old. They're doing well, but I do equalize them, and the water is checked/filled every month.

    As for cutting hair, who PAYS to cut hair?

    Flowbee + solar power = http://www.2manytoyz.com/flowbee.html

    Expensive batteries are probably great, but hard to find in my location, they're expensive, and I'm not convinced the higher price will net better performance/life span worth the higher cost. But, that's JMHO.
    · Share on Twitter
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: battery crap
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    GC-2's are hard to beat in the ROI department. To me L-16's are way overpriced for what you get in capacity and any longevity , if any.
    I went with L-16s not because I thought they would be cheaper (long term) than a bank of GC batteries, but because I needed more capacity than a single string of GCs (I wanted to avoid parallel strings).
    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
    · Share on Twitter
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: battery crap
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I went with L-16s not because I thought they would be cheaper (long term) than a bank of GC batteries, but because I needed more capacity than a single string of GCs (I wanted to avoid parallel strings).
    --vtMaps

    And that's why next time, (which may not be that far away, seeing as my L-16's are ten years old) I'll be going with 2 volt L-16's.
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: battery crap

    I last cut my hair in 1976! I do waste time shaving though! At $150 per year, after 35 years that's,, $5200, more than enough to build my PV system.

    Tony
    · Share on Twitter
  • JimMariner
    JimMariner Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭
    #18
    Re: battery crap
    Attachment not found.
    I bought 4 of these a few days ago @ Sams Club to start my Battery Bank with.
    I plan on adding another 4 in the next month or so too.

    As for getting a hair cut, I only have half a head of hair,
    I hate paying full price for half a hair cut :p
    so, I bought my own clippers and do it myself now.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: battery crap

    In my case my GC-2's have always been charged with a Generator ( didn't have any PV's till last year ) They were always been pulled to at least 50% or more DOD. With a 20 KW Generator, you have to get the most out of the batteries as you can. I have always load shifted and used the generator as little as possible.
    · Share on Twitter
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: battery crap

    tony,
    not sure if you meant that you shave your head or are you saying there's no hair there to worry about? i also agree that there's much to save by doing your hair yourself for about all that's left are hair salons with women doing a bad job of cutting my hair and charging high prices. about the only barber that's left in town told me he was going to charge me extra because i wasn't coming in monthly. like that extra half inch or so dulled his shears or something.:roll: btw, i started going back to the barber about that time in 76. my hair was down the middle of my back.:-)

    jimmariner,
    welcome to the forum. it's nice you have a good battery bank and will soon build on it, but what else do you have? pvs, controllers, inverters, etc.? what are you trying to power?
    · Share on Twitter
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: battery crap

    Nope, I grow my hair out, and tie it back, very little receding. I shave my face only because I look terrible with my spotty beard!

    T
    · Share on Twitter
  • sub3marathonman
    sub3marathonman Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: battery crap
    niel wrote: »
    about the only barber that's left in town told me he was going to charge me extra because i wasn't coming in monthly. like that extra half inch or so dulled his shears or something.:roll: btw, i started going back to the barber about that time in 76. my hair was down the middle of my back.:-)

    In high school there was a guy who had his hair down to the middle of his back, then one day comes in with a crew cut. Then did the same cycle again. That was years ago. Now he's probably had about 30 haircuts in his life, so at some point he must have started doing it himself if his mom stopped.
    · Share on Twitter
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: battery crap

    i think we derailed this too far.

    good laughs, but back to the subject matter.
    · Share on Twitter

Categories