Wall Mounting PVS

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niel
niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
in PV Installers Forum - NEC, Wiring, Installation #1
ok everybody, i have a problem. i would prefer and wanted to mount some pvs to my masonry wall. i was given 2 pvs that are equal to evergreen 205w pvs, but without the certifications evergreen pvs would have. no matter as i will use them in an off grid fashion and the specs are pretty much the same as the evergreen types. the thing i'm running into here is that there isn't any such thing as a wall mount for pvs it seems. i was envisioning a ground mount turned sideways, but the problem is the center of gravity is shifted and commercial mount makers won't warrant their stuff in this fashion. what makes this worse is that the pvs need to clear an overhang by about 1ft or they will catch some unnecessary shade. i did discuss my dilemma some with halfcrazy and he did not say he was aware of a solution, but he did draw a diagram that sums up the situation and i've attached it here.

i find it strange that pvs can't get wall mounted and yet i have seen solar hot water panels mounted to masonry walls, but i just don't know who made the mounts or hot water panel. i did make a mount for 1 of my us 64 pvs that had 4 legs of 2 inch aluminum angle set into the masonry and extended outward. i also made this adjustable with a length of aluminum bar that extends off of both of the bottom angles. now the us64 is much smaller in area and weight than today's pvs and i need to mount 2 pvs on the same mount so i don't trust my current homemade setup to handle this.

there is another point i need to bring up and that is the new mount should be adjustable for the different seasons. now if by the drawing it would have a length of at least 104 inches to swing 2 pvs at a 30 degree angle and still clear the 1 ft overhang. during the summer that's really letting it all hang out and i fear would be somewhat too weak to handle the weight hanging out that far like that. if the pv mount was able to be started at a point 1 foot out from the wall at the top by a horizontal arm that is also supported with a diagonal cross brace going down to a lower point on the wall it may alleviate the extra stresses of it hanging out farther hinging from higher up.

this is probably confusing to most of you as i'm probably not explaining this very well, but this is a start. i am looking for ideas be they commercial products (products should be covered in warranty) or homemade that will stand up to the circumstances. my main roof of my home is not very accessible and is shaded more often than the wall area so that's out. i do have a porch roof i could do this on, but i don't trust it. remember this house is 100+ years old. if i have no choice i may put it on that porch roof with a roof mount, but the extra stress on an old roof in addition to possible leaks is not good. the masonry i at least pointed and i trust it more than the porch roof.
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  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    i get the tilt part, but do ya need the panels to rotate(pivot) left and right?
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  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    i would prefer and wanted to mount some pvs to my masonry wall. is that hollow block,or type of stuck-o?
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    no. i don't need to track during the day, but i don't face south very well as the wall faces 39 degrees west of south so a small offset would be good here. i did do this for my homemade mount and brought it to about 23 degrees west of south. i don't want true south as i get most of my insolation roughly from south to west with east shaded.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    niel,

    Just started poking around ...

    First thing, could you something like this :
    http://www.solar-electric.com/irunsiofposo.html

    More later GL, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    it is a double brick wall.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    vic,
    the pole mount would not work out very well unless i could attach the pole to my wall. that is adding an extra unnecessary step to this and the pvs being held only at the top would be far weaker than 4 legs.

    i guess i should also add that my yard is small and steep for pole mounting there. even if i could do that i feel better with the pvs higher up and away from vandals.
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  • offgrid me
    offgrid me Solar Expert Posts: 119 ✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    Niel
    This shouldn't be to hard. We are only talking about 84 or so pounds here. Just create a hinge point at the top out of some unistrut/ supertstrut L brackets and attach them to the wall with expansion anchors. Then cut and drill two pieces of unistrut that are long enough to extend the panels beyond your roof line. Use a piece of galvi threaded rod as your hinge. For the adjustable bottom you can just cut an assortment of different length unistrut stays that you could bolt in with the changing seasons. The whole thing should cost less than $100 and will be plenty strong to survive the weather. My whole racking system that holds 20 panels is made from these materials.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    i can't picture what you are describing as i've never encountered commercial mounts or other homemade mounts up close. maybe give a few pics and further explanation??
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    What is the matter with just using stout hinges, bolted through the frame?

    I have a pair of smaller panels wall mounted, mounted on hinges. I then prop them with proper sized props relative to the sun angle over the course of the year. You can always reinforce the frames with either uni-strut or aluminum angle if you are worried about torque twisting the panels.

    Tony
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    i don't know what a stout hinge is. i tried to look it up, but i kept getting a reference to a faucet. btw, this is not a wood framed home.
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  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    Attachment not found. would this help? or have a basic idea of what you are looking for?
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    Stout meaning heavy duty.

    Mounting into the brick is not too hard if you use the proper fasteners. Para bolts, lag shields etc.


    Was that 85 lbs each, or for the pair? A pair of galvanized or stainless gate hinges would certainly carry the weight.

    http://www.hardwaresource.com/hinges/STAINLESS+STEEL+HINGES+and+HARDWARE/Gate+Hardware+and+Hinges

    I just used some tee hinges I had lying around, but my PV are pretty small.

    Tony
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  • offgrid me
    offgrid me Solar Expert Posts: 119 ✭✭
    #14
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    Have you ever used unistrut before. It is a steel c channel that has holes drilled every inch or so. It is designed to be cut to length and bolted together kind of like a big erector set. Home depot stocks it. They sell L brackets that are 6"x 6" with holes pre drilled in them. They are made of 1/4 steel. You could buy 4 of them and bolt them to the wall at the top of where you want the racking to start. Then you could buy two lengths of unistrut(they come 10' long) and cut it to your 104". Drill a whole through it at the top and bolt it between the L brackets. This will allow them to pivot out from the wall. At the bottom of the hanging strut you could attach two more L brackets and attach two short pieces of strut that will project back to the wall at the bottom of your panels. These would be you angle adjustment. The length of these pieces would determine the angle that your panels would sit. Where these meet the wall you would attach two more L brackets to hold the bottom of your stand offs.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS
    Slappy wrote: »
    Attachment not found. would this help? or have a basic idea of what you are looking for?

    that would be exactly what i was trying to describe.

    ok, i guess i could handle getting some heavy duty aluminum angle and use that for the framework, but is there a commercial rail that could attach to this all al angle mount that i can run and use that to clip the pvs to? yes, i am that much in the dark on the mounting aspect. i also thought there could be 3 such mounting frames to attach the pvs to rather than just 2 if it turns out to be weaker than i wish.

    also, what method do you like in attaching to masonry? lag bolts with anchors i've seen slip or pull out too often.

    btw each pv is about 40+ pounds and is speced just like an evergreen 205w pv both physically and electrically.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    Unistrut

    http://www.unistrut.us/

    Para bolts,


    http://www.westmidlandsfasteners.com/products.html

    Para bolts can be engineered for nearly any application, speced for shear, withdrawal resistance, live and dead loads, different masonry materials etc.


    Some drill and install with expansion only, others epoxy in.

    Tony
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    i guess ideally i'd have this up before the snow flies, but i also feel that is rushing things and that could backfire on me. i would rather be certain and not rush it. i need to order some stuff from naws for it anyway like mc4 extension, disconnect tool, and rails + clips if we settle on what i could need in that area.

    i can wait until next spring to mount this as i've already waited this long, but i do feel this needed to be put to the forum due to my unfamiliarity of what's out there for mounting purposes. i am shocked that none of the mount companies i contacted got back to me except 1 and he did not come up with a solution with a commercially made product that they would guarantee in this configuration. i guess to beef it up that they would guarantee it in this configuration would cost as much as the pvs themselves and the mounting companies are usually only warranting them out to 10 years. something taint right here as they should be giving 25 year warranties to match the pvs.:roll:
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    what do you guys think of these screws for masonry?

    http://www.lowes.com/pd_74248-2191-24305_0__?productId=3043615&Ntt=concrete+anchors&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dconcrete%2Banchors&facetInfo=

    just in case the link didn't copy right they are called tapcon screws. rather than a few lags or para bolts i could use a multitude of these with washers.
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  • offgrid me
    offgrid me Solar Expert Posts: 119 ✭✭
    #19
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    Niel
    Tapcons work ok for concrete but I would not use them for a shear load in brick or concrete block. My first choice would be epoxy type bolts. A close second is expansion anchors that use an integral steel drive pin. These are very strong and usually the masonry will fail before the anchor does.
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  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #20
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    take a look at these http://www.lowes.com/pd_46333-73628-254S_0__?productId=3033935&Ntt=anchor+boltd&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Danchor%2Bboltd%26page%3D2&facetIn

    and to take it a litte fruther, you can coat the anchors with rosin, to help with the bonding to the the masonary, scence it is 100 yrs old, and getting a good chance tha masonary is getting a little brittle. (apply liberly). me spelling stinks :blush:
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    it seems the lowes links aren't working, but what is the actual name of the anchors with the rosin and i will look them up?

    let's try it from this link and look at fig 6. that is the type i dislike as i've seen them slip and outright fail too often.
    http://fasteners.hardwarestore.com/learning/working-with-masonry-anchors.aspx
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  • offgrid me
    offgrid me Solar Expert Posts: 119 ✭✭
    #22
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    I would recommend either the anchors figured in #7 or #8 from the link you posted. As you said #6 is junk and should only be used for light duty applications. Hilti makes a line of heavy duty epoxy and mechanical anchors http://www.hilti.com/holcom/page/module/home/home_dispatcher.jsf
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  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #23
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    but what is the actual name of the anchors with the rosin and i will look them up? use rosin that is used for fibreglass, easy to work with, but wear gloves, when mixing and applying. stored in the paint area of homedepot and lowes.. it is a 2 part system the rosin it self and the hardener, mix in a butter dish (plastic) and applay with el-cheap-o paint brush (not the foam type).
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #24
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS
    Slappy wrote: »
    Attachment not found. would this help? or have a basic idea of what you are looking for?
    If you ran the bottom supports down to the ground instead of back to the wall it would remove a lot of the stress from the top wall mounts.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #25
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS
    ggunn wrote: »
    If you ran the bottom supports down to the ground instead of back to the wall it would remove a lot of the stress from the top wall mounts.

    to the ground is impossible, but i do have my old porch roof below that i would like to avoid going to if i can. if the angle off the wall to the pvs is no farther than the 40 degrees tilt off the vertical axis they were made for, then they are warranted. that would allow the bottom to be covered if going to the porch roof below, but the top would still go off in a horizontal direction and they would deny a warranty due to this as the entire vertical weight they would claim is being put upon the two lower legs.

    if any mount manufacturers out there are reading this and have a possible solution you could either chime in here or pm me.
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    Niel, Did you find racks like you want. Do you get Home Power Magazine? There was an article in there about a store that put solar up like awnings on the side of the building. I keep all of mine and I could look and see if I can find the story if you want. if you get Home power you might be able to find it. :Dsolarvic:D It is a few years back, maybe 3 or 4 or more.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #27
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    i don't subscribe so is it possible you could copy that one article for me to send it to me? that assumes you have a copy machine available too. not sure if pdf files can be trimmed down either to crop that article out of as i know they are online in pdf files.

    anyway, no commercial solution has crossed my path as of yet that i would not have to piece together or mickey mouse. snow is already scheduled to fly as winter storm warnings are out to the south and east of me with 1-2 slushy inches for saturday here.:grr

    btw, did your trip go ok?
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    I will dig thru my old copys to see if I can find the magazine article. I have most all copys except for 5 or 6 back to when home power started :Dsolarvic
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  • jagec
    jagec Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭
    #29
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    As another person living within 100-year-old brick walls, I don't trust Tapcons any further than I can spit a rat. I'm sure that they work great with new brick, concrete etc, but old brick is just too crumbly for a screw-based anchor to work.

    The sleeve anchors are pretty much your best bet. I've seen them stand up to incredible abuse out on the farm (in river rock, mind you), but ultimately I really hate anchoring to masonry. The masonry itself will always fail well before the anchor (at least under pull-out stresses).

    Any chance of fastening to the underside of the roof proper? I'm sure there are some nice big timbers up there that would be a good deal easier to make a solid connection to, and the panels could still be mounted as far below as necessary to avoid shading. That way the roof could take the weight of the panels+mounting, and you could make a less stressed connection to the masonry to hold the panels in place at the bottom or prop them out from the wall in the summer.
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #30
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS

    Niel, I found the magazine this article is in. It is home power issue 112 april/may 2006. Page 30. There are a lot of pictures. Maybe someone here that is a home power subscriber and is more computer literate might be able to copy it and send it to you.
    Solarvic
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #31
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    Re: Wall Mounting PVS
    jagec wrote: »
    As another person living within 100-year-old brick walls, I don't trust Tapcons any further than I can spit a rat. I'm sure that they work great with new brick, concrete etc, but old brick is just too crumbly for a screw-based anchor to work.

    The sleeve anchors are pretty much your best bet. I've seen them stand up to incredible abuse out on the farm (in river rock, mind you), but ultimately I really hate anchoring to masonry. The masonry itself will always fail well before the anchor (at least under pull-out stresses).

    Any chance of fastening to the underside of the roof proper? I'm sure there are some nice big timbers up there that would be a good deal easier to make a solid connection to, and the panels could still be mounted as far below as necessary to avoid shading. That way the roof could take the weight of the panels+mounting, and you could make a less stressed connection to the masonry to hold the panels in place at the bottom or prop them out from the wall in the summer.

    looks like sleeves it may have to be then if i stay with the wall mount, but i could always add more of them to better secure it. the wall was pointed by me, but i did not go far in depth in all places as most went about 3/4 of an inch in on average with the max being halfway or about 2 inches in areas i thought weak or there was an air gap in the mortar.

    i would prefer not going as high as the eaves to mount it as it is rough going for me at that point with the ladders i have and my current health circumstances. i'm taking a risk being up high as it is (doctors told me to stay off of ladders) for i could make myself worse or dead in a fall, but several feet down from the eaves is more doable for me. i'm really beginning to think that it may be easier to take my chances on my old porch roof than the wall with the difficulty in finding a suitable mount for the wall.:roll: the wall would be stronger and it would look better than mounting on the porch roof. well, the snow is now in the area so there's no rush to get it done before the winter weather. if i do change to mounting on the roof do they customarily change the solar angles by raising and lowering the back or the front? this will need to be above the roof by several feet due to snow accumulations and it will really be up and out there for the summer angle.
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