A NOOB

Maniacal · August 2011

Hello to everyone,

It took me quite a few hours of digging through search engine results to finally find this forum. So far it seems like exactly what I'm looking for.

Right now my wife and I are living in 3-2-2 rent house with extreme sun exposure in N. central Texas. Our electric usage in the summer is horrible b/c of the high temps straining the micky mouse central AC.

This month we are approaching 4000 kwh. Without the AC contantly running, we stay below 1500kwh per month.

We hope to be out of this rent house by the end of 2011. we are planning on moving into a 2000 sq ft double wide in the country. The energy efficiancy in the DW is leaps and bounds better than the home we are in now.

Once we move I want to start lowering our enery dependence immediatly. A tank less water heater will be first. Add in our CFLs, heat reflective window treatments, and conservative enegy use, we should be running pretty low on KWH.

The second thing we plan on doing is to generate our own electricity. The problem is that I know very little about how it actually works. I am a tractor trailer mechanic, so I understand mechanically how to inovate and install a system, but I dont know all the technical stuff.

I'm leaning toward a wind and solar hybrid. In this area we have plenty of sun during the day, and light wind during the day, with stronger wind at night. I'm wanting to build an expanding system that I can start and add to. IOW I want to start as much as I can afford, while still connected to the grid. As I add more batteries, panels, and turbines I want our dependancy on the grid to move into the negative.

I'm hoping to dig through these forums and hear from people who have done this before me, ask advice on purchasing, and find useable information resources.

Thank you for your time, and knowledge. I look forward to being part of this community.

cptdondo · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Two things I've done:

Solar water heat. It may be better than tankless; tankless still needs power, high instantaneous power. An 80 gal solar tank can provide almost all the water a family needs. We have a 60 gal. and it almost keeps up with 4 of us.

Ceiling vents. If you have a lot of days when the outside temps are OK but indoor temps are too high, install venting skylights. Open them to let the hot air out. Hot air rises; a 4 ft. square skylight, 16' up, with a 10 degree temp differential, provides as much cooling as an 8,000 BTU A/C unit.

Other than that, I defer to the solar electric experts on this forum.

Maniacal · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

I will consider a solar HW heater. Right now the outside temp is 108F. So open air vents maybe okay for spring and fall, but definatly not summer.

Our winter temps stay around freezing, with dips into the teens for days at a time. I'm ignorant on how a solar HW heater will work during the winter months.

Cariboocoot · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Welcome to the forum.

At least you didn't ask about running the A/C directly from solar panels.

Conservation is your best friend. It is also the start to understanding any solar electric you may add: figure out the loads, reduce the loads, and you're halfway there.

Like cptdondo said, direct solar hot water is a good plan. It should work well in Texas. In fact this year the problem seems to be keeping water there below the boiling point. :roll:

Since you've got grid, your best plan is to skip the batteries and go with a grid-tie system. They're simpler, less expensive, and will make use of every Watt whatever panels you get can produce. You don't have to worry about sizing up inverters and batteries to match loads and then figure out what panels you need to recharge the batteries. It's Panels -> Inverter -> Grid, and watch the bill go down.

That said, the stuff is expensive. You need to look in to the financial side in respect to any available utility/state/federal incentives in your area that will help offset the capital costs.

Don't put too much hope in wind power: you really need to evaluate the site with an anemometer (preferably recording) and see if you have the kind of sustained winds that make it practical. Too often what feels like strong wind to us is a mere zephyr to a turbine: no significant power. The second mistake people make is not investing in a good enough tower/install. The third is the large number of commercially available turbines that are just plain junk.

And if there are any solar electric "experts" on this site please report them to the moderators so they can be banned immediately!

Cariboocoot · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Maniacal wrote: »

I will consider a solar HW heater. Right now the outside temp is 108F. So open air vents maybe okay for spring and fall, but definatly not summer.

Our winter temps stay around freezing, with dips into the teens for days at a time. I'm ignorant on how a solar HW heater will work during the winter months.

Solar HW can even be used in the snowy climes. Have a look at some of the DIY plans at Build-It Solar: http://www.builditsolar.com/

bsolar · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

i think the prevailing thought is that you dont really 'expand' on a solar system, expanding generally means you need better equipment that can handle more all the way around .. on the hot water there are alot of ideas ive heard and thought about since my goal is for my solar to take care of that .. i have very low hot water needs like less than 30gal/day so what i did that works quite well is wire my 30gal heater element to 120v which cuts wattage to 1/4th which was about 1100watts stock, then replaced the element to get it to ~640watts which takes about 4 hours to heat from cold to thermostat trip .. i also have plans to put a second 'purpose' 12v 600w element and wire it straight to my array as a dump load just for fun lol .. sorry im rambling .. you WILL get an idea of what you need and want soon enough around here .. im off grid capable with ~ 1800w of panel and an 8 cell battery bank and i think thats pretty minimal and needs careful planning of other things like hot water, well, putting up a cloths line, fans, timing things .. the more funds and larger the system the better i guess .. then again some people can get by with little .. thats all i have .. im having fun with it ..

Maniacal · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

I am about to look at those solar HW plans. THX.

So the battery bank isnt needed for a grid tie in (new terminoligy just learned).

Will the system still perform for me in an event of disaster? And I'm guessing that without the batteries that as soon as the sun drops I will be depending on the grid again.

While not having to buy a great deal of deep cycle batteries is great, can I add them in later if I choose to?

As far as the 800 lb AC goes, my wife and I do hope to go with an efficiant air to air, or geo thermal unit.

We do not own a microwave, and use a clothesline 3 seasons of the year.

cptdondo · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Maniacal wrote: »

As far as the 800 lb AC goes, my wife and I do hope to go with an efficiant air to air, or geo thermal unit.

If the air is dry (low humidity) and you have access to water, use a swamp (evaporative) cooler. Much lower power needs than an A/C unit. Much cheaper than geothermal or air to air as well.

Cariboocoot · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Maniacal wrote: »

I am about to look at those solar HW plans. THX.

So the battery bank isnt needed for a grid tie in (new terminoligy just learned).

Will the system still perform for me in an event of disaster? And I'm guessing that without the batteries that as soon as the sun drops I will be depending on the grid again.

Yep: no batteries means if you have no grid you have no power. It is usually cheaper to have a back-up generator for power outages than to build and maintain a battery-based system for the few occasions when the grid goes down.

While not having to buy a great deal of deep cycle batteries is great, can I add them in later if I choose to?

Not easily. There are hybrid grid-tie systems with battery back-up available from Xantrex and Outback, but you're right back up the expense ladder there with batteries and charge controllers. Xantrex also makes a very high Voltage controller which can, in some cases, take input from a grid-tie array and keep a battery bank charged - but there you have to have a separate battery-based inverter.

As far as the 800 lb AC goes, my wife and I do hope to go with an efficiant air to air, or geo thermal unit.

You may want to read through this thread about the mini-split A/C units too: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=5104

Maniacal · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Cariboo: Thank you for the build it solar website. It is pretty informative, and gave me some ideas for the planning process.

Seven · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Welcome.

DFW here.

You will learn alot here. I am proof of that. Others here will give better answers than I can, but there is alot you need to take into consideration. I agree that wind is usually a poor choice. Go with the thermal water heater. If you have a creek or pool(pond) nearby, the geo is a possibility. Understand that you will spend a good bit of money to go renewable energy. How long it takes to get that money back depends on how commited you are to reducing your usage. Put powerstrips on everything and turn them off also.

Maniacal · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Everything is already on a powerstrip. Nothing on that dosent need to be. Windows blocking as much heat out as possible in this drafty 1960s rambler.

I live in cleburne. we are looking to move to Joshua/Godley area.

icarus · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

IMHO, forget about generting all your own power. Read and understnd the advantages of grid tie solar. Read and understnd how consevtion is really your first, second and third move. A/C is your biggest load, so every dollar spent to reduce y our A/C load will pay big dividends. Consider solar hot water, but also consider heat recovery hot water A/C which will pay dividends two ways, the first is it will reduce y our a/c load while giving you hot water.

Also consider that double wides are notoriously energy inefficient. They have very little insulation, and are a giant heat sinks, especially if you don't have mature shade trees.

Also realize that the biggest single pit fall of "solar" is people who " ready, fire,aim". Tey endue up getting all gung ho, they buy a bunch of stuff with out realizing the real issues and then end up very disappointed,, because they haven't done their homework.

Read and understnd all you can on the entire subject of energy conservation, renewable energy (here and elsewhere) before you buy anything.

Good luck and keep in touch,

Tony

niel · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

as far as adding battery back up later goes, it is possible to do this and it will be separate from the gt system installed. there would not be any direct charging from the pvs even though many are working out possibilities to use the pvs during outages from their gt systems. just don't count on pv charging during an outage at this point.

an inverter/charger with a battery bank can be added to back up some or all of your electrical needs in an outage. yes, generators do make sense economically, but sometimes they are too noisy or you don't have gas on hand or ran out. would you want to hear a generator running at 3am for i know i wouldn't. maybe you could place it far enough from your place and if you've no close neighbors to bother the generator is more appealing then. anyway, getting back on track here with the inverter/charger you size the max (at one time) power you'd need for the inverter's power rating. from there you'd need to know what the average power drawn would be and for how long to come up the the needed killowatt hours you'd need to supply. once that is figured this determines the battery bank capacity as being at least 2x the estimated loads.

that is an over-simplification, but an accurate accounting of how it could be added. particulars can be gone into if you decide this route.

techntrek · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Something to consider with a tankless water heater, if your area has high mineral content you could end up with a clogged heater. I considered one until I learned that, and since my water has minerals - including added calcium to control pH - I just added a timer to my existing electric heater.

And something to consider with wind power, those turbines require regular maintenance and parts replacement. Depending on the type of tower you choose you either have to tilt it down every 6 months, or you have to climb to the top of the tower every 6 months. Even if you don't mind heights, the manufacturer may not be around when you need a new part.

Someone else mentioned the mini-splits. I was considering a ground-sourced heat pump until I learned of the mini-split here. About the same efficiency (up to 26 SEER) for far less cost/hassle/installation. I will be moving to these in the near future.

Maniacal · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Thanks for all the info. I definatly like to plan (almost a fault). I have learned a lot already. Once I move I think I will tackle some of the smaller solar projects until I get a good average of energy used.

In the meantime I am going to skulk around here reading what I can, and asking random questions of termonoligy that I dont know.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

I recommend reading photovoltaics Design and installaiton manual
it is about $70 but worth it and though not the most exciting thing to read it is a pretty good starter and is faster learning than reading random threads IMHO.

niel · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

we have a small glossary here,
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=6136
and you'll also find some info on various things here on naws website,
http://www.windsun.com/
just scroll down to see some of it and click on your area of interest.

Maniacal · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Just an update. My wife and I are under contract for a new home. It was built in 1983, but very well maintained. Its within city limits but I see a lot of room to work.

Its pretty well insulated. Has a 4 ton AC unit for a 1150 sq ft home. Attic ventilation keeps this house cooled with the ac unit even in 110 heat. Our current house has major downfalls in this area.

I want to go a step further by adding some expanding foam insulation in the attic. Suprisingly the guy at home depot who works in buiding supplies (dealing with insulation) has never heard of such a thing.

Once I get raw energy usage down as much as possible, then I will start my planning point for adding solar.

Thanks to everone who has offered input. Will be in touch as things progress.

icarus · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Why are you. Going to add expanded foam instead of conventional insulation? Wouldn't the foam compress any existing insulation?

Tony

Seven · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

Be sure to check the size of the inside unit on that house. Four tons for a sub 1200sf house is a bit of overkill IMO, and I am in TX. Three ton should be plenty and that is probably what the house had originally. You may want to make sure the inside unit is still properly matched to the outside unit.

Where in the attic are you going to use the expanding foam? Where the insulation is now, or below the shingle decking? It will act as a vapor barrier also so be sure the attic can vent properly. Keep in mind the location of your wiring if you plan on covering any of it with the expanding foam.

niel · August 2011

Re: A NOOB

my 2 cents worth.
if you must have foam, why not use the 4x8 premade boards of it and it comes in various thicknesses (aka r-values). if you pump that expanding foam into some areas it could damage it in its expansion and believe me when i tell you it doesn't just stop just because there's no more room. it will exert a great deal of pressure and doesn't care if it breaks your drywall or misaligns your windows. i do know that you can buy some that does not expand much, but it's easier with boards of it imho. don't rule out more fiberglass unless the boards are cheaper or space is tight that the fiberglass won't fit well.

A NOOB

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