Planning to go Solar in central OH

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System
System Posts: 2,511 admin
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
First let me thank this forum, having spent a lot of time reading about solar, this by far has been the most helpful site.

I am looking to install a GT system in central Ohio, my roof has a decent size, roughly 1,400sq ft. We use roughly 3,100KWH/mo. My main goal is to start off-setting some of that usage this is not purely a ROI type issue for me. The roof has a 30 degree pitch. The roof faces nearly S-SE offset by about 20 degrees. There is little to no shading on that angle, no trees etc. I want quality components with solid warranty. I want it to look professional, but this is not a primary viewing angle, so I won't insist on black frame etc

Obvious concerns for where I live; wind-load (we're on top of a hill) and snow-load; but most importantly I want a quality installation, flashing whenever the rood is penetrated etc. I've see some horror stories and learned from some threads on this forum. I'd like a system that is expandable, and start with 12kW and build up over time. I am not interested in leasing.

I was responsive quoted me 82k installed close to $7/w which felt high to me; based on what I've read.

I've looked on-line and packages that have quality components SMA inverters (some use Enphase) Canadian Solar, UNI-Rac etc run $39-45k (not brand specific here, just making clear these are not no-name)

I want to make clear that I have NO PROBLEM with a quality installer making a fair profit and I am willing to pay for VALUE but I don't want to feel like I am overpaying I am all about VALUE not cost per se.

My questions
- any general comments about my plans are welcome, I have a thick skin ;)
- does it make any sense to buy one of these complete packages and have them installed professionally or are you better of letting the installer pick components. What I found so far is that installer/dealers push their product line
- I realize that these packages don't include everything, what are the 'gotcha' I should be on the look-out for? (I am happy to post the specifics I am looking at but not sure that violates forum policy)
An examples is 60 Canadian Solar panels 230w, Enphase, UNIRAC
- I have read a lot about racking systems and inverter systems that supposedly make the installation easier, Zep, flexrack, Enphase etc. does it generally make sense to invest in these kinds of systems to lower the labor investment? (BTW not looking to start a Micro inverter vs central inverter debate here.. this is more about the installation cost)

And any other thoughts you all might have

Appreciate the feedback
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    Some of thoughts:

    First 3.1 MegaWatt/hour month is a huge load ... and a 12kw system is probably bigger than net-metering allows, if it is allowed where you live

    Much better return for your money fixing the demand side of the equation

    Geothermal heatpump for Heat/Hotwater and cooling in the summer, or Air based with the latest SEER 20+ systems
    Insulation
    Insulated Windows & Doors
    High efficiency appliances

    At a minimum, do a full Audit and find where your energy is going

    You should be able to reduce you electric by two thirds by the above techniques

    On the Solar, you can get panels for about 1.60 Watt now, the inverter is about 50 cents a watt for a large SMA, figure another 1.00 watt balance of system and that's the material costs. Its a negotiation for what someones labor and knowledge is worth, the more you know, the better you can negotiate a fair price
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,445 admin
    #3
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    I don't think $7 per watt (before rebates) is terribly expensive. And the $5 per watt is probably really inexpensive for a turnkey install. Does this include any (if needed) upgrades to your main panel/utility drop? To fully offset your monthly usage would be a fairly large Solar GT system and there is a good chance your system would need a new main panel/electrical service if this is an older home.

    Much depends on the local costs of labor and business in your region. I am not in the business--so I really cannot comment more on your installation costs.

    Make sure you understand your utility's billing plan and any regulatory requirements (flat rate, time of use, tiered pricing, minimum charges, billing charges, etc.).... In Northern California, for example, it is not unheard of for people installing a small "lets see how it works first before spending big $$$" system can have their monthly electric bill actually increase because of the mandatory solar GT billing plan (time of use, high peak electrical costs, people that cannot switch their loads to off peak times, etc.). And for businesses, there are "reservation/demand" charges that can make solar GT very expensive too.

    Anyway--back to your energy usage....

    Energy usage is highly personal and we tend to push conservation here not because "it's green" but because we are cheap.

    Have you looked at your energy usage and addressed the power needed to run your home? Lots of insulation, double pane windows, energy start appliances, high efficiency HVAC/Heat Pumps, conversion to natural gas (or possibly propane), heat pump water heater if electric heat, changing from desktop to laptop computers, turning off loads when not needed, motion detector security lights, etc...

    In general, spending on conservation is almost always a better first place for your funds than any sort of power generation system. Also, for value of your home--conservation measures tend to add to the base price of the home--whereas solar GT / Hybrid systems tend to be more of a mixed bag.

    Your thoughts?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #4
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    Appreciate the feedback so far.

    I hear you guys on the usage. The home is a new custom home, it is not small.. 6,500sq ft. It has two a/c units. 12ft ceilings .. throughout. The appliances are all <3yrs old custom fridge etc. I am not an expert but everyone who has looked at it says it is all top notch windows etc. I replaced lights with CFL etc. I am planning on doing all the upgrades to geothermal etc, but it is all new equipment I would hate to replace it now. But I will do an energy audit you all suggest.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    New doesn't mean energy efficient ... even in "custom homes" the builder will use code mandated minimum, typically a SEER of 13.

    Also, insulation is usually code minimum ... but yes, a home of that size will have a larger energy footprint

    If this was my project and I'll assume the funds are available:

    Replacing the heat-pumps, Geo Thermal will give you the biggest savings, in a home your size probably cut the bill by 1/3rd, you could also stay Air-Source and not worry about digging up the yard

    http://iqdrive.net/efficiency.html Best Air source 21 SEER

    http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/geothermalheatpumps/gt-px.shtml Best Geo 27 SEER



    Load the Attic with blown-in fiberglass ... I'd go R40 minimum

    If you should choose Air base heat pump, then you should consider the new heat-pump hot water tanks ( GeoThermal has this as a built in option )

    http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=202065074&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=202065074&ci_src=14110944&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D26X-_-202065074&locStoreNum=256

    http://www.appliancefactoryonline.com/product-details.php?productid=GEH-GEH50DNSRSA&child=0

    Oh, and if you have a pool, that's a big user of electric, consider one of these

    http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=variable+pool+pump&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=32a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1390&bih=1022&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=2055253390090321462&sa=X&ei=l23qTfTRCc64twfTtcmKAQ&ved=0CFYQ8wIwAQ
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  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    Are your energy loads summer dominated, winter dominated or fairly level?

    The good news is Ohio has nice incentives and a srec program, you will find that if you beat up you installer a bit you should be in the 5 to 6 dollar per watt price range.

    Do you have enough land to install a ground mount dual axis tracker?

    Most people will try and talk you out of the tracker, as most would prefer to just install more panels. However, in our neck of the woods a trackers is going to give you about 45% more production.

    If you have the space I think the benefits of ground mount systems far out weigh the money savings of roof mount.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #7
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    Thanks for all the feedback so far guys!

    I have been researching our current A/C system one is a 5 ton SEER 10 (yikes) and 2 TON SEER 10 (yikes again). They are paired with 2 XR90 gas heaters. So the good news is there should be plenty of room for improvement. Water heater is also gas Rheem PowerVent 2 (75G)

    From what I've read the ROI vs gas for Geothermal is a lot longer against gas. Been looking at the suggestions from Solar Guppy's link. I am learning but if I am reading this right the GeoThermal Carrier has a 27 EER, the AirSource has 22 SEER but only 12.6 EER .. I don't pretend to understand SEER vs EER ratings but it appears that the GeoThermal is a lot better than the best AirSource which in turn are a lot better than what I've got here now (at least 2x). I like the idea of getting water, heat and cooling all in one efficient package. But it appears that I'll need two systems, maybe I can get away with a single 6 ton system rather than a 5 and 2.

    My usage does vary with season a lot, as low as 1,800 this April and as high as 3,995 (last August) so definitely seasonal. There is plenty of room to have trackers in the yard; but it won't be allowed where I live :(

    No pool, but I do have a 180G fish tank that could pass for one :)

    Once I get the usage under control; solar is next!

    Thanks for all the pointers so far..
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  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    Are you sure trackers are not allowed?

    It sounds like you have some room to improve efficiency, if you can get a better installed price there should be some cash left over for Ground source heat pump.

    If your are not ready to scap your newer air conditioners, you could add a misting unit, some shade panels, and a desuperheater.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    Now that you getting into the math, do some conversions and checking to compare a Geo unit or even the high Air Source SEER units to your Gas costs

    A therm of Natural Gas is about 1000K btu's

    1kwh of electric is 3400 btus

    Now this is were your SEER , ERR come in, one is cooling, the other is heating

    So your Geo unit with a EER of 27, transfers 27 * 3400 = 91800 btus for the cost on a single kwhr of energy. A Therm is suppose to be 1,000,000 btus

    so it takes about 11 kwh on the Geo unit to equate to the Natural Gas therm

    http://www.duke-energy.com/ohio/savings/heating-costs.asp

    using the number from the above, your 27 EER Geo unit will cost one quarter the cost of Natural Gas and will costs about one third the electric. Going Geo also means saving gas on the hot water.

    The best thing about Geo, is, it doesn't vary with outside temperature for efficiency, where Air source does and that's why the numbers are so much better

    Once you go this route, then you would size your solar for the reduced load, I'd hazzard a guess your looking at probably a savings of about 2/3 your current combined Electric & Gas bills and will be looking at a 4kw solar to net you out. The combined cost of smaller solar with Geo will be substantially less than putting in 12kw solar and that's why we always suggest this path.

    This is just rough ideas ... but should convince you of the path to take and understand why, as you'll find you'll know more than the local contractors, the same ones that throw 5 ton SEER 10's and charge you premium prices to boot
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,445 admin
    #10
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    By the way a minor point, I believe one Therm of gas is actually 100,000 BTU's.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #11
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH

    Thanks guys!

    Been off the net for 2 days (something ate through our line!)

    I have been looking at WaterFurnace Envision even better EER than the GT-PX (30 EER) seems to have gotten good reviews and there is a IGSHPA Accredited Installer close.
    I found out that Bryant and Carrier both sell GT-PX and read somewhere that both just resell ClimateMaster units and that ClimateAire are all the same basic unit with some different options.

    Horrendously frustrated with the dealers, event the "master dealers" don't respond to e-mail. I am ready to spend some big $ but they all insist on calls, tomorrow I am going to set some time aside to make some calls!
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH
    bvand wrote: »
    Thanks guys!

    Been off the net for 2 days (something ate through our line!)

    I have been looking at WaterFurnace Envision even better EER than the GT-PX (30 EER) seems to have gotten good reviews and there is a IGSHPA Accredited Installer close.
    I found out that Bryant and Carrier both sell GT-PX and read somewhere that both just resell ClimateMaster units and that ClimateAire are all the same basic unit with some different options.

    Horrendously frustrated with the dealers, event the "master dealers" don't respond to e-mail. I am ready to spend some big $ but they all insist on calls, tomorrow I am going to set some time aside to make some calls!
    My daughter lives near me and had a homebuilder from Ohio build thier house. The heating contractor was from ohio and cut a lot of corners on thier geo thermal heating system. Didn,t use enough pipe and didn,t bury it deep enough. Also the furnace was a builders quality that has the older gas. I think the waterfurnace invision is top notch and I would put in a ground loop of at least 1000 ft buryed 6 feet per ton. I was thinking geothermal till I got a gas well with free gas to heat my home. :Dsolarvic:D
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  • TnAndy
    TnAndy Solar Expert Posts: 249 ✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Planning to go Solar in central OH
    SolarLurker wrote: »
    However, in our neck of the woods a trackers is going to give you about 45% more production.

    I'd question that 45% figure. My experience has been about 25% on a single, and just starting with a dual, and I don't expect more than another 5% or so from it.
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