Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

Batikikik
Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
What is the bets rate for Large Agricultural facility after solar installation ?
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML

    Probably this is the rate they are on
    http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_AG-5.pdf

    Good luck, you'll need a phd and 5 years worth of bills to figure this one out
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #3
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    And a post-doc to figure out what happens when they go on solar.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Batikikik
    Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Solar Guppy AG5 is not the best rate after solar. Cause it has high demand charge.
    What phd do you mean ?

    I am thinking between AG4 and AGR
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #5
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Phd==Getting a doctorate from college (aka--joking about complexity of rate and other issues like taxes and net metering polices from utility).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!
    Batikikik wrote: »
    Solar Guppy AG5 is not the best rate after solar. Cause it has high demand charge.
    What phd do you mean ?

    I am thinking between AG4 and AGR

    I made no call on the best rate, I wrote that's what the rate plan your potential customer is likely on. Good luck figuring out what is best, at a minimum your going to need to go over in exacting detail their past usage and do what ifs with very complex , custom made spreadsheets to know exactly there bill will change.

    My educated guess this is a 5 figure exercise, meaning, you will pay a professional greater than 10K to provide a report in detail to know exactly the effect solar will have on a bill. You can give it your best effort without experience in doing these calculations, but the risk is costing the company 6 figures in their future electric bills if your wrong.

    This is just another example of how commercial scale systems are different than two guys and a truck residential installations.
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  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    What is this customers business? I realize its agriculture, however what do they produce? what equipment is being used to generate such large usage.

    for example are they using grain driers, is it HVAC equipment for barns housing animals?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #8
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Also find out if anyone has direct logs of their power usage (15 minute periods for commercial) from either the customer or the utility (smart meter logs, ect.).

    Without detailed information, and somebody with experience in the region, a wrong guess could be expensive. The gt solar just makes it more complex.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Batikikik
    Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Business is cold storage which has a 350kW Demand in winter and 650kW in summer. Paying somebody and get results I know that that way but I want to know by myself. In 4million project I will pay 10k to somebody to do that for me but I wanna learn . And I already done bill analysis and I have success with spreadsheet.

    Main equipments are heavy duty HVAC. And usage is 40%peak hours and 60% in off peak.
    The best rate is AG4C so far , but still demand charge is killing, because there is no way to reduce demand after 6pm.
    But there is a rate AGV which has 35c high peak but it is only 4 hours off peak.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #10
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Only thing I can see is using some sort of time shifting (making ice during cheap power/during day with solar) and using chilled water to reduce compressor loads during peak periods when solar is not available.

    It has been done for office buildings and such--but I do not know if it actually is financially feasible (without tax breaks, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Since the HVAC is mostly cooling? What methods are used? Heat pump? Perhaps the conservation piece can come into play. Lowering the loads via method to chill like ground source heat pump perhaps can contribute to a reduction in loads. Add thermal mass and running temps down on off peak a couple degrees and coast through on peak? If they have multiple cooling units perhaps a smart controller to make sure the demand peak is kept under control can contribute. Do they have a source of BIOmass to run a generator for the on peak? Have you profiled the cooling losses and tried to reduce the demand that way? Certainly cheaper than adding more solar.

    Sounds like a mixed solution might be best, but it is hard to tell without the details.
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  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    #12
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    They are going to need to look at a couple of options, maybe more efficient Hvac, an ice storage unit, passive cooling design.
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  • Batikikik
    Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    New HVAC will cost for them $ 356,000. Existing HVAC is pretty good. I am thinking about generator too. But I think Generator will not be cost effective cause it is gonna run from 8pm to 8am.
    There are two rate which can make sense one is AG4C and AGV .
    AGV has only 4 hours time of usage. But has higher rate.
    Now I am working on that to see which one is better.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!
    Batikikik wrote: »
    New HVAC will cost for them $ 356,000. Existing HVAC is pretty good. I am thinking about generator too. But I think Generator will not be cost effective cause it is gonna run from 8pm to 8am.
    There are two rate which can make sense one is AG4C and AGV .
    AGV has only 4 hours time of usage. But has higher rate.
    Now I am working on that to see which one is better.

    If demand peak is an issue then solutions to limit that might be fairly cost effective.
    1) multiple HVAC units? Control the systems so they run in a round robin fashion, none simultaneously.
    2) use the generator to cover the demand peak only. Most systems cycle, and if the temp swings can be managed to a certain degree the generator runnng might only come on when the demand peak is the only way to accomplish the job..
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  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    If they have 4 million for solar then I would think they can swing 400k for updated hvac. How much would new hvac save?

    Remember the old solar saying dollar spend on efficiency save 3 dollar in solar.

    Trackers would probally help, although most people are Luke warn to them. The reality is if you have summer dominated loads and a long peak use, trackers are the way to go.
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  • Batikikik
    Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    What do you mean saying tracker ????

    What do you think SolarLuker which one would be better fuel cell or generator ?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #17
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Placing panels on solar trackers to get more power in the mornings and evenings.

    I have seen micro gas turbines being used for swimming pools where the waste heat can be used for heating running from natural gas.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    #18
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    A dual axis tracker is going to give you a much wider window of solar production in the summer months, production will start earlier in the am and last later into the pm.

    When pv was much more expensive tracking was more common, however with net metering and cheap pv, the trend has been to just use an oversized fixed array and bank excess generation with the utility. Plus, urban residential installation don't always have the space for trackers.

    A rural setting with a long peak use would really benefit from a trackers.
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  • Batikikik
    Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Can you recommend any tracking manufacturer? I like that Idea, but building does not have property enough for truckers. Building has pitched roof 12/0.5 facing south and north.
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  • Batikikik
    Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    During prelimenry design all modules north and south side should tilted with 20 degree facing south. But then I could not find racking for corrugated metal roof which will be reasonable. That`s why I end up with 802kW half facing south with 3 deg half facing north with 3 deg.
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  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    #21
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Do they have any space for a ground mount array?

    Could you use the solar to create a shade structure, maybe use mount solyndra panels above the roof. Might reduce cooling loads a bit.

    Maybe something like this could work mounted above the barns.
    http://www.raytracker.com/
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  • Batikikik
    Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    No they dont have any space for ground mount installation!
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  • SolarLurker
    SolarLurker Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Can you Design the pv to act as a shade structure for the buildings.
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  • Batikikik
    Batikikik Solar Expert Posts: 141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    What do you mean?? You mean shade for roof ???
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #25
    Re: Best rate PG&E for Large Agricultural customers!

    Lots of us with solar arrays on our roofs see a large reduction in the amount of heat that gets into our home because of the shading effect of the solar array...

    I think the suggestion if the array is mounted on the roof--there could be substantial power savings because of less heat coming in through the roof--reducing your cooling loads.

    But, I believe you are already looking at roof mount as that is the only real-estate available for this install.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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