High School Project

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Giftneigung
Giftneigung Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
I am a High School student and for my senior project I am trying to develop a design brief to take my school off of the grid (or install a grid tied system). I do not know what to do, period. I am totally new to the whole experience other than some light dabbling with radio shack panels (really small, for like small toys). I would really appreciate it if you could recommend a system and help me through the process of buying and possibly assembling the panels (through the forum obviously).

Basically, what all do I need to make this happen? (and why?)
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #2
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    Re: High School Project

    Are you more into electronics or the law?

    Sizing a system for XXXX kWH's per year of production is pretty simple.

    For a large system like a school, there can be fairly expensive electrical work required where the utility connects to the school (you can be talking about a large amount of power here--Interestingly, the Utility connection may have to be increased in size because the GT Solar System outputs more peak power than the school normally consumes).

    Lastly, about the law--Much of the profit and loss in a large commercial system revolves around the State Public Utility Commissions' tariffs for your school (or commercial power rates), tax laws, and "green credits", tax rebates, etc...

    This is a complex subject and you can define what you want your paper to be about and just touch on the other issues you may not be addressing.

    Here is a newspaper article about a school district that stopped installing GT Solar because their utility bill went higher (because of those tariffs I spoke about and how they work--this is not like your home power bill).

    A couple of News Articles...

    It can be a very interesting subject.

    Questions?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Giftneigung
    Giftneigung Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #3
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    Re: High School Project

    well, all of it really, if it would cost more money in taxes then saved on energy then that is something I need to factor.

    I know basically none of the slang in this field by the way, so if you could help me there too?

    I have talked to a teacher who is willing to help me through this, and he is going to see about getting me the electrical bill for the school. Once I get that, how do I calculate the "savings" of the panels.

    I know the theory behind photovoltaic panels, but I don't know how to set up the system and tie them into the grid, what equipment would I need? What process should I follow? I hear its expensive to tie it to the grid, true? false? why?

    again, I'm basically a blank slate in this area.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: High School Project

    Welcome to the forum, I applaud your enthusiasm! Spend a lot of time reading here and else where. Begin to understand the hardware terminology. Go to this link, : http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/

    http://www.nrel.gov/rredc/pvwatts/version2.html

    You can plug in your location to get an idea of what a real world system will produce.
    Once you have a copy of the electrical bill, ideally on a month by month basis, you can begin to see what size system one would need.

    Read all you can about grid tie solar. It is the only solution if the grid is available. Battery based, off grid systems come at about twice the price for the hardware, at half the performance.

    Keep in touch, and remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question,

    Tony
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  • Giftneigung
    Giftneigung Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #5
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    Re: High School Project

    I would like to put it out there that the whole reason for this project (aside from senior project) is that Schools keep getting funding cuts, and I hope to receive grants to offset the initial install, and then reduce costs of running the school, freeing up funds for hopefully the fine arts (yet sadly it would ultimately probably go to football).

    so I assumed correctly that I would want a grid tied, but I still do not understand the hardware that would be required...

    what is a kWh/m 2/day?
    whats the difference between AC and DC? (clearly they are alternating and direct currents)
    perhaps there is a book that would answer all of these questions and not annoy you nice folks?

    also, do you know any grants that might fit my situation?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #6
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    Re: High School Project

    Read Tony's links... But Grid Tied (utility interactive) inverter systems are pretty simple from a black box point of view:

    Solar array that is sort of like a sun battery... They output Voltage and Current based on how much sun is hitting them (and how much load is placed on the solar panels).

    The Grid Tied / Utility Interactive Inverter takes the DC power from the solar array and "inverts it" to 240/480 VAC 60 Hz (depending on your school's power).

    The AC output of the GT inverter is simply wired into the school's electrical panel and the power is now available to run the school lighting and air conditioning, etc... Any extra power is pushed out to the utility grid and turns the utility meter backwards.

    For all the world, it is very similar to your car's electrical system.

    The Alternator sends power to the car's battery and from there, the power is sent to other places in the car. The alternator is the power source (GT inverter). The car battery stores the excess energy (the utility looks like a giant AC battery)... And the electrical loads take their power from the battery and the alternator--they really don't care from where.

    Of course, the devil is in the details... Home sized systems are pretty easy and standardized. Larger commercial systems can be quite a different issue.

    Talk with your instructor--perhaps doing your paper on a home solar RE system would be a better scope for your project.

    I am an engineer and I would not claim to know 1/10th of what I would need to know about doing a large commercial install (not my field).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #7
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    Re: High School Project

    GT solar--probably will not save your school any money other than through grants, tax credits and solar RE credits (it really is an accounting game).

    To save money--going through and working on conservation (double pane windows, insulation, more efficient lighting, more efficient HVAC, look at addressing peak power usage--many places charge more for power used noon-6pm vs at other times of the day, etc.)...

    There are costs with solar power... Theft is a big one (a local high school just lost all its panels last year). Damage--Rocks/wind storms/hail storms/lightning can take out a major chunk of the system.

    Age--Solar panels should last 20-40+ years--The GT inverter and logging electronics--will probably need repairs at 5 years, and replacement at 10+ years...

    Cannot tell you how may "green projects" I have seen that are actually non-functional after a few years and:
    1. nobody is monitoring the system to see if it working
    2. nobody knows how to tell if it failed
    3. nobody knows who is responsible if it failed
    4. nobody has the funds to hire a firm to debug the system
    5. nobody has funds to pay for repairs
    6. 10 years down the road, nobody has the funds to replace the major electronic components, and the original inverter system is obsolete--needing both re-engineering and replacement because there are no spare components available.
    Let alone somebody did not do the original leg work to figure out the billing/rate plan/tariff issues and finds the system is not saving them any money in the first place.

    No don't get me wrong, this can be a very educational and interesting paper to work on... Just don't be surprised if the numbers do not work out like "everyone expected".

    I believe you may be up in New York--There is not a lot of sun in many areas...

    You may get 2-5 hours of noon time equivalent sun per day... In Tucson Arizona, they get 5-7 hours of sun per day... The same system there may generate almost 2x the amount of electricity as in New York.

    Solar needs sun to work well.

    Solar Thermal (for heating) may be a better option for your area... Solar thermal is less expensive and for cold weather climates, the heating may help save quite a bit of money in the winter... So could a Ground or Air Sourced HVAC heat pump system (this is not solar per say--but a conservation project).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Giftneigung
    Giftneigung Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #8
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    Re: High School Project

    That is unfortunate since I really wanted to get a panel up before I graduated (I'm currently a Junior)

    I'll keep studying and ask more when the questions come to me, thanks
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: High School Project

    depending on where you are the school district may get help in funding the project.

    www.dsireusa.org

    most likely this would need engineers to plan it out, put it on paper, submit it for approvals for both installing and rebates, a good solar firm to install it, and finally an inspection to get the final green light to activate it.

    i doubt you'd get the school off of the grid as that's a different and more difficult animal to tame. it would even be tough to break even on the electric bills as schools tend to need large amounts of power, but solar may help to offset it some depending on the area available for mounting pvs.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #10
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    Re: High School Project

    You may be able to get a single panel up using a micro inverter so you can demonstrate/measure its performance (220 watt panel + Enphase inverter). Such a setup may cost ~$1,000 and you might get a local installer to donate some parts/materials to your school (i.e., do you have an electric shop/classroom?).

    Technically, it is very easy to do... Doing it to code (NEC, local building codes, local utility requirements)--Not so much.

    Legally (and safety wise), you cannot just hook a solar panel to an inverter and plug it into the wall (practically speaking, it is almost that easy to do it illegally).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: High School Project

    You could also build a small battery based system as a beta project.

    On an other note, one of the biggest pitfalls of newbie solar folks is, the "Ready, Fire, Aim" syndrome. That is doing a bunch of work, buying a bunch of hardware etc, only to discover that it is the wrong approach.

    T.
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  • Giftneigung
    Giftneigung Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #12
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    Re: High School Project

    soooooooo, what I'm hearing is that I should probably pick a different project?
    I still think that the whole area is an interesting area of study...
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: High School Project,

    I dont think you should do a different project, but rather redefine the scope of it. Spend some time reading and understnding, and then figure out what it is you are trying to accomplish. Don't get discouraged, use this for what your senior project rely ought to be,, a gret lerning experience.

    Tony
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  • Giftneigung
    Giftneigung Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #14
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    Re: High School Project

    well, my goal is one panel, not really the whole school, I think I misspoke earlier. so what would be a legal and easier project do you guys think?
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: High School Project

    Like I said before, and build a smallish battery based system to power a lap top for example as a proof of concept, as an idea. Include a data logging system etc and it would be a gret educational project, comparatively cheap.

    Tony
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  • Giftneigung
    Giftneigung Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #16
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    Re: High School Project

    oh, and I am in Washington state, near Yakima, in case that makes a difference in the lighting
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  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    #17
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    Re: High School Project

    Well...first of all, it's not slang...it's "nomenclature". :D

    Second - I believe you mentioned something about building a PV module (solar panel). You can do that. However, it will not be UL approved, and will not pass inspection and can be a fire hazard. Fine for a science fair project but if you were to bolt it to a school's roof then whoever allowed you to do it would be criminally negligent.


    Solar power generally costs more than grid power. Most people shoot for an amortization (savings which eventually add up to repay the cost of the system) of between 10 and 20 years.


    So what can you realistically do? Well, it's already been mentioned, but around here it's generally recommended to first spend money on conservation. If the goal is to save the school money, then $30,000 spent on insulation and more efficient lighting and heating/cooling systems will definitely save the school more money than solar electric.

    First, you reduce consumption, then you build a system to supply what is needed. Since the load has been reduced, the system you need to supply the new reduced load will be smaller.

    Though, what you will actually accomplish would probably be getting the study and analysis done - it's unlikely you would personally do the work, though you might get one of the contractors to take you on as an intern for the duration of the project (extra credit always looks good!).


    Also, "solar" is not just electric; there is also solar hot water. Solar hot water systems are FAR cheaper than solar electric systems, and can generate a lot of savings. Amortization on a solar hot water system might only be 1-3 years instead of 10-20 years.

    I would think that setting up a solar hot water system for some section of the school would be a more realistic goal. You could design a system to pre-heat the water for the kitchen or gym water heaters. Those are no doubt big units and if you can get them to run 1/3 less than they are now, you'll save the school money.

    But again, your part in that will almost certainly be limited to the paperwork. School's usually require that any work on the building other than normal maintenance - be it electrical or plumbing or roofing or whatever - be done by licensed, bonded and insured contractors. No one wants to take a chance that someone's child will be damaged by sloppy work. And if it does happen, they want to be able to point the finger, lay the blame and sue someone. Preferably an insurance company with deep pockets.


    There are a few things that you personally can do. For instance water heater blankets. These are just insulation made to wrap around the outside of the water heater so they lose less heat. You might want to see if there are water saving shower heads in the building - if not, put some in - they'll not only save water, they'll save HOT water and thus save energy. Some..not a tremendous amount, but lots of small savings does add up.


    If your goal is to tinker with solar electric, then by all means build a home made panel and enter it in the science fair.

    If your goal is to actually save the school money - then the best thing you could probably do, would be to do a proper Energy Audit:

    http://www.ecoschools.com/Energy/Energy_wSidebar.html

    You could even do it as course work and should be able to talk your school into giving you class credit for it - since there IS an actual high school course on it:

    http://www.bpa.gov/corporate/kr/ed/energyaudit/homepage.shtml


    Also, the Energy Audit is the first step, so once it's done, it becomes a foundation upon which the next steps - such as recommended actions to take - can be built.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: High School Project

    If your public building in Yakima does not use solar hot water, you should do some resarch for them! Yakima is the sun capital of the PNW, and heating water with solar is like falling off a log. You could build a small test system using a abandoned water heater tank, a small pump, some copper tubing, a wooden box lined with scrap steel, covered with cast off patio door glass that you can get for free. This little system would provide more than enough hot water for a family of two per day in Yakima. You could design and build such a system for a couple hundred dollars, less if you could get suppliers to donate the material. Set it up on the play ground, and amaze your teachers at how simple it is, and how well it works.

    PM me and I can talk to you about some simple design ideas for this. I have built several over the years.

    Tony
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