swea grid tie starter kit

Dapdan
Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
in Solar Product Reviews & Opinions #1
Hey all,

I found this interesting product. Does anyone have any experience of know of anyone that has or just an informed opinion on these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Swea-Grid-Tie-Inverter--Wind-Generator-Starter-Kit-_W0QQitemZ260481515260QQcmdZViewItem#ht_1907wt_751[/URL].


http://www.swea.nl/PDF/WT300WGTI.pdf

http://www.swea.nl/

http://www.swea.nl/PDF/StarterkitManualEng.pdf


Cheers...
Damani
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Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #2
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    Here is one thread with some links to other places too.

    SWEA's website:

    www.swea.nl

    I see that they have a manual with UL listing--however, I am not sure I believe it. On this thread, the "sales manager" sent a note to a distributor (who has posted here too before) that states:
    The product is already built to EU standards. If you have ever worked with UL you understand the bureaucracy involved. I have been monitoring the process for almost 2 years now. I have now been involved in the review of the documentation designed to UL standards so the process is close. I specifically asked Mr Smits, the sales manager with SWEA to provide you a realistic time line remaining for the 250 plug and play since the UL standards were important to you. His reply to you was very specific as to minor upgrades being made to the unit and he provided the best available timeline to its approval date. Previously the target was end of June and now appears to be End of August but could be as late as January 2010.

    I tried searching google for:

    "UL" site:www.swea.nl
    "ETL" site:www.swea.nl

    And it found nothing....

    However, there is a copy of the SWEA Grid Tied Extension whatever on the web that shows UL (US/Canada) or ETL...
    Certifcates of conformities.

    The SWEA Grid Tie Inverter GTI-250W Starter kit is listed as follows.USA market is tested according: UL-1741 for static Inverters and charge controllers for use to deliver power back to the public grid. Canada market is tested according:C22.2.no. 107.1 for static Inverters and charge controllers for use to deliver power back to the public grid.Bothe marked with cULus or ETL logo on the Inverter system.

    In the end, there are some people that have tried SWEA solar GT inverters that have worked, and those that have failed.

    At this time, it still appears that these units may not be NRTL listed--and therefore not legal to install in US/Canada.

    And, I don't see how a "plug-in" GT inverter will ever be considered safe to plug into a home outlet--Plug in 4x 250 watt GT inverters and now you have >15 amp circuit rating (8 amp GT inverters + 15 amp circuit breaker = overheated wiring and sockets if other loads are plugged into wall outlet).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #3
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    Some further discussion on them by UK users:
    A bit strange that these inverters seem to power themselves from the AC side (i.e. the grid), CONSTANTLY. So you have a constant 28W draw whether they're actually producing power or not :grr a bit silly that.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #4
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    The instrument that you used to 'measure' the power used by the SWEA UWT-I250 is probably one that is not calibrated very well. It is not able to measure the phase of the current accurately, which leads to large faults.
    The actual power taken from the grid with these inverters is less than 0.4W. The measured capacitive current is about 0.12A. This is mainly the current flowing through the filter capacitors (X-capacitors) and does not represent the real power.

    Always use a reliable and calibrated instrument to do good measurements.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #5
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    From reading Stephendv's first link... It appears the measurements where done with the Euro version of a Kill-A-Watt meter... Which, in my limited usage has seem to be pretty accurate.

    However, it is possible that the person was reading Amps or VA (volts*amps) and miss-interpreted this as Watts=V*A*PF... Comparing with a filament lamps, PF=1.0 so VA=Watts in that case. So the quick test could confirm a "user error" rather than confirming the inverter input test.

    Pending somebody else confirming the Volts, Amps, VA, PF readings using a Kill-A-Watt (or better) power meter--it is very possible that what Rienm has posted here (and back on link #1) is correct and the actual "real power" is much less.

    Rienm, it looks like you may be connected with SWEA is some way... What is the current status on UL/CSA/NRTL listing of your product for North America... We have other posts here that indicate that the testing was well on it way quite a while ago?

    To me, there seem to be code issues that would preclude even approving your device as designed (even if it passed the rest of the requirements) as a plug-in "power source/generator" would never be allowed... The unit would have to be hardwired in or some sort of dedicated circuit to be legal (and safe if multiple units share a circuit with multiple loads).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • lime
    lime Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #6
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    Wondering if anyone had heard any update on this company and their product. I really like the idea of a plug-n-play system - think it could potentially really help move the industry in the right direction and possibly resonate with consumers. Would love to test one out myself.

    Updates? Info?
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    I have heard no news, and indeed wouldn't expect to. Personally I think that there is a bar that they will not be able to clear in terms of UL/CSA, and that is going to be the bugaboo with plug an play. Utilities want assurances that any hardware connected to their grid is 100% safe, as do insurance companies.

    Tony
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    Another plug in inverter is the Soladin 600 which is approved for grid tie in the UK, Netherlands and Spain (different models for each country): http://www.mastervolt.com/solar/products/soladin-600/soladin-600-160-700-wp-model-for-use-in-the-united-kingdom/

    No UL yet.
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  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    People are dragging these things up all over the blogs - some green site must have put up a paid advertisement - meaning a blogger was paid to present the units.

    A quote from a previous post regarding UL listing, 'Previously the target was end of June and now appears to be End of August but could be as late as January 2010' Honesty does not seem to be their strong point - or possibility I should have said intelligence.

    A lot of things are more easily available in Europe - remember Thalomide? The testing and consumer protection are far less.

    Once many people buy something honest analysis goes out the window - they see whatever is needed to support/justify their purchase - don't want to look like fools.

    It seems that in Europe all a manufacturer has to do is to get three greens to say how wonderful something is and no problem.

    I always look what else the sites are selling - the ones where the plug and play systems are offered also seem to offer other questionable goods with no technical backup.

    Russ
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  • lime
    lime Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #10
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    That's too bad. I think that plug n play would really help boost the general consumers acceptance of renewables ---- right now solar, wind, etc... is seen as a big hassle and construction commitment - while a plug n play might be able to transition the consumer mentally to thinking of renewables as an appliance, with little more to fear than getting a new washer / dryer or fridge. I also think that a 250 watt system really isn't going to make all that much a difference on peoples energy consumption. 250 is basically a toy. I have a 4.8 kw on my house which works great and has virtually zeroed my bill.

    Just curious what others thought.

    Ken
    ____________________
    Lime Light Renewable Energy
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #11
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    For whatever reason, 14, 12, and 10 AWG wire are actually derated for current capacity by the NEC and could be rated to carry a bit more current (by the numbers).

    So, in theory, one or two 250 watt plug-in systems "could" be legal under code for simple plug-in wiring. But, probably never will be.

    The problem is that it would be impossible to ensure that a consumer would limit themselves to 1 (or 2) SWEA plug-in modules on a home system (power strip anyone?).

    In general, the safety code is written such that it will never allow a system to be made "unsafe" if somebody adds more loads than a circuit can handle (pop the breaker instead).

    There is no easy way of doing this with any plug-in power source, that I can see (just my opinion--people make good money proving others wrong).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    To expand on what Bill said (and in conjunction with the Clarion thread):

    You (and that's everybody) really have no idea how the wiring is run in your house. Those of us who have taken houses apart to fix them have seen all sorts of convoluted routing from outlet to outlet. So when you plug this inverter in ... it may be the first outlet off the box, allowing for 2X the current potential through 14 AWG. Or it may be the last in line, barely increasing the over-all current depending on what's drawing. Plug enough of them in and you get the reverse of the typical over-loaded extension cord problem - with the same firey result.

    The problem with plug-in inverters isn't what happens when they're installed properly (which is not quite as simple as the companies make it out to be), it's that they make it far to easy to install improperly. That's where all the issues come up. Dedicated feed lines are a really darn good idea.

    UL "approval" only means a device is electrically safe when used as directed. It doesn't mean it's perfectly safe no matter what. Personally I hope they do not get certification, because that will give people the impression "nothing can go wrong" and they'll be buying them and plugging them in willy-nilly. And possibly burning their house down.
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: swea grid tie starter kit

    In case someone stumbles on this thread from a search engine, here's one distributors report of having a box full of burnt out SWEA units from wind turbine installs: http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7665.msg188867/topicseen.html#msg188867
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