Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

myhouse07 · March 2011

You guys ever here about a Gasifier? this one looks cool!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M44Xy2-PCc8

russ · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

There are many gasifier type of wood/pellet/corn cob/coal etc burners out there.

The web site for this one is not at all impressive - no information at all. On top of that what little the site says makes no sense.

They make a big deal of being green.

No data - no rating - no approvals - only a price and they tell you to hurry with your order.

It would be 100% foolish to by from them. Like I said there are many gasifier types on the market from 'real' companies.

Russ

myhouse07 · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

The web site is a little ruff. But I did call the phone # and talked to the owner and he said they just put a fast web site up. He was really nice and took the time to tell me more about their gasifier. He toled me their gasifiers works and are all hand made one at a time in a small shop in wyoming. They are just starting up and not web experts and put most there time into building a good gasifiers.

I did some looking and their the only ones I could find selling one other then some trash can looking thing called a GEK and he has a better looking web site but his gasifier looks like crap.

But Like I asked before I think this would work good to back up my solar and charge my batterys with all the dead tree I have thanks to beetle killing.

I already have a big gas generator just add a gasifier and I am making power with wood looks sweet.

If you know of others selling gasifers or have used them in the past let my know?

But I still think this gasifier may be a winner..:D

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

During WW II gasifiers were used quite a lot in England and Germany to make up for the gasoline shortage. You'd see cars with weird still-like contraptions on the back and big bags on the roof. There's nothing new about them. They are not "green" nor are they very efficient. Much of the energy value of the wood is turned to waste heat almost immediately. The resulting fuel gas is much lower in energy value than gasoline, with a resulting drop in HP from the engine.

Do a lot of research on this before you spend your money.

BB. · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Beware that many people have died running wood gas generators back in WWII... Lots of Carbon Monoxide is generated (used as fuel for generator/etc.) and a substantial risk of fire too if gas generator is not kept clear of flammable material.

I guess it takes around 20 lbs of dry wood per 1 gallon equivalent of gasoline energy. So you will probably have to tend the gassifier pretty constantly when operating (unless they make some sort of automatic feed--which could be a fire hazard in itself).

It is probably one of those "last ditch" technologies...

-Bill

stephendv · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

myhouse07 wrote: »

I did some looking and their the only ones I could find selling one other then some trash can looking thing called a GEK and he has a better looking web site but his gasifier looks like crap.

Eye of the beholder etc etc

I think the GEK looks great. What's nice is that they supply the CAD files and design to build your own if you're so inclined.

Nice video showing it attached to a spark converted lister gen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oM18NVW-xQ

russ · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Gasifier boilers - It is a wood burner that operates hot enough to gasify the lot - hot enough for long enough to burn the gases before they leave the burner area.

1) http://greenwoodusa.com/Article_All_You_Need_To_Know_About_Wood_Gasification.php

2) http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/woodboilers.htm

3) http://gototalenergy.com/wood-chip-gasifier-boiler.html

4) http://www.woodboilers.com/product-detail.aspx?id=50

Nothing new - nothing any more dangerous than any wood stove.

A search will turn up many pages of URLs.

Russ

techntrek · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Basically you want to convert wood to rotational energy (to drive a generator). Personally I would use a boiler which will capture far more of the wood's stored energy. Then I would use steam from the boiler to drive a turbine, which in turn would drive a generator. You can then use the waste heat in the condensate to heat domestic hot water and/or run it through a radiator to heat a room. Which increases your overall system efficiency even more. There are plenty of wood-powered boilers on the market, aimed at the home heating sector.

Something to consider with a gassifier - the fumes will not burn cleanly like LPG or NG. You could end up with a system that works marginally at first and eventually doesn't run at all.

chevenstein · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

My grandfather encountered this in Poland during the second world war and claims that the process is hard to control and destroys the engine's valves fairly quickly, like running with incorrect timing can do. He did later make the arrangement commercially successful in much larger industrial contexts where the gas produced is fed into a furnace to generate more steam.

This concept can today make sense for commercial power generation (tens of MW) when:

1) the whole plant is fully instrumented and every combustion aspect PLC controlled and monitored for emissions compliance

2) the gas generated is fed into a secondary boiler (not used in a spark ignition engine)

3) you have tens of millions of $$ to invest

4) you can get local village idiots to stop convincing people that you're trying to build some sort of giant smoking heap of burning tires

oh, and 5) you have a reliable wood chip supply what will not collaborate with competitors to fix prices on you!

For home use the arrangement can be a fun science project, but unless you can instrument and fully automate your equipment you will be hard pressed to have it work well in any other form than a stove or boiler (where the reduction reaction happens in the same vessel as the gas produced is burned).

myhouse07 · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

I did lots of looking into gasifiers and I can tell you gasifiers are very green no more CO2 is let in to the air then it took to grow the tree. Pyrolysis is how the gas is made and its supper clean and the gas is syngas and it burns blue. The wast is Bio-char and bio-char is a carbon sequestration. So a gasifier is carbon negative. And you dont have to just use trees,Nut shells, celluloses, and even horse crap. As for killing ppl I dont think a gasifier could kill 1% of the ppl Oil kills. So no its not a new idea just one a good one. As for being tuff on engines thats only with no filter.

You guys need to open your minds the world needs more new old ides. Wind and solar can only get us so far and oil is just costing the world to much.

Did you know that you can make liquid fuel from bio-mass like wood and celluloses with a gasifier and The Fischer–Tropsch process and it would cost less the oil?

Open your eyes the oil comp. want to keep us all in the dark!

20lbs of horse crap and old news paper cost nothing.

1 gal. of gas $4.00 and maybe a wor !

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Since you already sold yourself on the idea, why did you ask?
And if such a wonderful thing has been around for so long, why is it not in common use?
I think you are intentionally glossing over the drawbacks.
Your choice.

russ · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

@ Myhouse - You are visiting too many sites, either green or fruitcake survivalist, that operate on half truths and wishes.

Your last post was 40 lbs of the horse stuff. You should have lots of fuel available.

Forget the carbon negative garbage - it is meaningless.

You must have copied the 'pyrolysis' word from somewhere - you don't seem to understand it.

The gas may be clean or not that is a different topic all together. Gas generated by pyrolysis can be extremely dirty.

The making of liquid fuel via the pyrolysis route is a complex thing. Not to be done at home for certain. The reason İt is not commonly used to make liquid fuel is that it is very expensive to go that route.

This is the type of thing I worked with for many years. The green lines you copy/paste are a bad joke at best.

I provided you with links to gasifier boilers - I guess you only wanted to post some nonsense.

Green sites love this type of stuff - have fun.

I would recommend you really stay away from this type of thing - it can be dangerous if not well thought out.

Russ

myhouse07 · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Russ thank you for calling me a dumb a**. next time just come out and say it. You must sell oil for a living now!

Bio-fuel will always be hands down a better way to make gas and I am not saying gasification of biomass is a 100% safe.

But if you use a small gasifiier OUT SIDE of a barn to run a Gen. set for two hr every other day to top your batterys off. way not?

And if for some reason the dollar dose crash you will have away to drive your car maybe not at a 100 M.PH more like 65.

As for being green or not well I know this a tree is on top the ground it uses CO2 to grow. Oil is 4000 to 18000 feet in the ground and that CO2 is new to the air.

Oil is 100% not GREEN! And yes ppl do get killed just to keep the price down!

So Russ just because you worked with gasification and you could not make it work for you dose not mean it will not work just you did not make it work!

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

myhouse07

This is an official warning about tone and attitude. Keep it civil or else you will receive a time out.

The information russ & others provided here is 100% correct; you would be wise to heed it. Here are a few facts summarized:

Gasification has been around for over 100 years. Coal gas was the first commercially available product used for lighting & cooking in Victorian times.
It works better on a large scale than a small one. It works better stationary than mobile (so you should be okay there; the converted autos had many problems).
You can not just dump a bunch of garbage in a pot and cook it up and get usable syngas out the other end. Different materials break down at different temperatures and produce different results. Without monitoring and controlling closely every step of the way (as Chevenstein mention) the process shuts down - or blows up. I have personal knowledge of this fact as I worked peripherally on a large-scale project of this type back in the 1970's. It was supposed to convert municipal waste in to usable fuel for power generating stations. It never worked because the raw material involve was so inconsistent that the gasification process could not be maintained.

If you want to go ahead and experiment with this that's your business. You may even get it to work and not destroy a generator. But it is necessary to know all the possible hazards and potential failings beforehand so that you can look out for them.

Be advised there are a lot of hype sites out there promoting all sorts of things as the ultimate answer to all our energy woes. They are often based on a small amount of truth and a large amount of not-so-easily digestible source of methane.

Have you thought about using organic oil to fuel a diesel gen? Proven, relatively green, safer, simpler.

BTW, oil is organic too. Many organic substances produce quite toxic compounds when used as fuel. Alcohol is very clean burning, but expensive to produce and hard on engines (great solvent - lousy lubricator). I was doing destructive distillation and running engines on alcohol probably before you were born. It still hasn't caught up economically with gasoline.

But at $5 per gallon (around here) maybe it's about time somebody with the mega$ to do it on a practical scale got into synfuel. Again.

techntrek · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

myhouse - did you even read my post? You are trying to solve a physics problem, and you are selecting an inefficient method of solving that problem. Go with a boiler my friend.

westbranch · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

myhouse07 wrote: »

As for being green or not well I know this a tree is on top the ground it uses CO2 to grow. Oil is 4000 to 18000 feet in the ground and that CO2 is new to the air.

Myhouse07 you will be happy to know that trees absorb CO2 and they are not fussy if the source is from bio gas or carbon fuels ( Oil and Gas and Coal) that were formed millennium ago from what ever vegetation covered the earth in the days of the dinosaurs, that was eventually covered with earth of some form, compressed and turned into carbon based compounds...

There is nothing new on earth that wasn't here before, in some form or another. Like they say, 'Buy Land they aren't making any more of it'...
a disbeliever yet to be convinced... one way or another.

Oh yes Diamonds are also made from carbon...

just an old Forester... with an open mind and the courage to ask the hard questions.

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Eric;

With all the tons of wood waste produced each year in BC, where are all the gasifier plants? :roll:

I think the OP is a bit upset that people warned him about the potential problems with such systems rather than just supported the decision he'd already made that they are the solution.

BB. · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

MyHouse,

It is not that we want to stop people from following their dreams.... We want to make sure that nobody gets hurt or killed following them.

Typically, once we make the warnings we will try and help people build/buy/etc. their system and make it work to the best of everyone's ability.

It is just that many of these devices are inherently dangerous and many require special permits and sometimes even training (like pressurized boilers--which we have had many discussions here about how wise, or not, a "personal" live steam boiler is to build/run for off-grid power--hint, not an inherently safe project either) to even run.

-Bill

westbranch · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Marc, I know of several proposals that have been made for the Chilcotin plateau, west of Williams Lake, and they all seem to flounder in the "sea of red tape" and regulations... I recently spoke to one of the Indian band Chiefs that is pushing for one such project and they are having problems with the existing 3 phase power lines not being large enough to handle the projected output of a bio-fuel (dead Lodgepole Pine) generating plant. the fuel is there for at least 10 years+++. Another issue is water supply for tower cooling.

cheers
e

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

It's never as simple as "garbage in, fuel out".

nsaspook · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Cariboocoot wrote: »

It's never as simple as "garbage in, fuel out".

Unless it's bacon.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an143

techntrek · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Or a Mr. Fusion.

solarvic · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Why does everyones idea always get shot down? My house post did get a lot of ridicule. No one even encouraged him that it is possible to work. I looked at russ,s links. Most al;l them are woodstoves. Don,t see how that is going to power a generator as most of them don,t build up pressure that you could run a steam engine with. I had a central boiler outside wood stove that has a burning chamber to help burn the gas that comes off the combustion. Very good wood stove but isn,t pressurized. When I went to school back in the 50,s and sixty,s the AG teacher run a lawn mower on a bucket of chicken poop. There is a cheese factory not far from me that burns the bio gas made in the cheese fermenting process. The owner was told that it would never work, but he proved them all wrong. He has a 2 megawatt generator that runs on the gas from his cheese making process. All I am saying is that maybe all of us old farts don,t know it all like we think we do. solarvic

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Solarvic;

No one said it wouldn't work. Gasification systems do work and have been used for 100+ years.
What we did all try to point out is that it is not as simple & perfect as certain promotional web sites would lead people to believe. There were safety warnings which should not be ignored. With solar you have the possibility of electric shock, spark-ignition, heat ignition, and flammable gas. With a gasifier powered generator you have that plus asphyxiation, poisoning, and explosion.

We make the same points with wind turbines and with solar. It's just that there are fewer issues with either and the dangers not so great. I did in fact suggest he investigate the gasifiers very carefully before sinking time, effort, and money in to one. I did not say "this can't possibly work so forget it". I save that admonishment for perpetual motion machines and people who think you can draw batteries down 100% and still recharge them.

Your comment on the boilers is spot on: to get them to drive a turbine requires a build up of pressure. This is not typically what they are designed for (steam production as opposed to hot water). In most places it would be technically illegal to build and use a pressurized steam engine without the proper license/inspection/engineer's degree.

Please note that the example you cite is 2 megawatts: large scale. Exactly what I said; that these things work better on a large scale than on a small one. Regrettably it is much the same with many energy systems.

I know I don't know it all, but I do know a lot. My biggest problem is becoming dreadfully forgetful in my declining years and somewhat unclear in communication skills.

System2 · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Hello to you all.

Myhouse07 asked me to check out this forum. He told me he was getting some bad feedback on here.

Well first let me tell you a little about myself. I have spent the last 2 year studying, the somewhat lost sciences of gasification. I have built over a 30 different types of Gasifiers from an up draught gasifier, Cross-draught gasifier, Fluidized bed gasifier, Downdraught and many more. It’s from this research I came to construct my own Gasifier. The Garringer Gasifier it’s a consumer grade gasifier.

I took some time to read your replays to myhouse07 and would say you guys really don’t understand this type of gasification. Our Gasifier is a downdraught gasifier so a blower is used to pull the gas down and out of the gasifer at start up. This gets the unit up to a temp of 1100C at this temp all the tar of the wood gas (syngas) are cracked off and fall into the bio- char. Then the gas is pulled into a set of cyclone filter then pulled into a natural fiber filter to remove any fines left. So the syngas is supper clean and even burns cleaner then LP and natural gas.

Syngas is hydrogen and carbon monoxide and yes carbon monoxide is highly toxic to humans and animals in higher quantities that is why our gasifier is for outdoor use only. As for risk of exploding? Yes it does happen but not like you think, the wood gas has a very low BTU Energy content. The energy content of 1 standard cubic foot of snygas is only 135 BTU vs. 1 standard cubic foot of gasoline at 1020 BTU so when it dose explode it makes a small bang nose like a thump. Since the gasifier dose not store gas it would never explode and kill anyone. Only enough gas is made to fuel the Engine as needed.

As for Engine life I have a Miller Big 40 gas welder with over 1000hr of wood gas run time on it and it still runs and welds great and the spark plugs never foul.
As for unattended run times, It takes about 4 min. to get the gasifier up to temp. then you start your gen-set and walk away for up to 4hr depending on the size of the gen-set hooked up to it. We sell lager hoppers for longer run times.

As for power lose. Syngas from our gasifier has about 50% nitrogen by volume. The nitrogen is inert and doesn’t burn, thus lowering the output of the engine by about 25% on spark engines and 15-20% on diesels.

So those are the facts on our gasifiers sorry my web site is not up to par. I Just got it up and going 4 days ago. I spend most my time building gasifiers not doing web design. All our sales are local and were looking to expand thanks for the input will work on it.

If you have anymore questions feel free to ask me.

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Actually your post confirms that we do understand gasifiers very well around here.

Here's some info you seem to be a bit vague on: your gasifier produces methane. Natural gas is methane. One methane can't burn cleaner than another.

Oh, and if it is allowed to build up (as in a supply regulating vessel as would be necessary on any motor application) methane can explode with tremendous force. I've seen the wasted remains of two houses that have been destroyed by such explosions.

Now here's a question you can answer for us all: why is your IP address exactly the same as myhouse07's? Neighbours, are you?

russ · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Gasification is nothing new and is not being re-discovered - that was a total mis-statement. Numerous commercial plants are brought on line every year. The big boys of the fuel industry are the players. China is building more huge plants than the rest of the world put together.

Gasification on a home scale by people that don't understand what they are getting in to is highly dangerous and should not be encouraged. The risk of explosion which this guy plays down is real if the rules are not followed. The process sets the rules - not some web post saying it isn't dangerous.

I expect these fellows will have lots of time on their hands to work on a website after they sell a few and have a few accidents. Work will stop as the lawsuits pile up leaving lots of free time.

Products of gasification (syngas) are H2, CO, CO2, N2 plus whatever other nice things come through in small quantities. If the product gas is not cleaned up contaminants it would be nasty stuff to have around - certainly not clean and green.

Using air for gasification produces a low quality (BTU value) gas as was noted. Commercially it is not done as it is horribly wasteful.

No CH4 involved - that requires more steps - never a backyard projcet.

The Fischer–Tropsch process to have a liquid fuel product involves a good deal of plant equipment and should never be considered in a backyard setup.

The links I posted were for gasifier boilers - they burn more completely than a normal wood fired boiler. They make sense for home use.

Gasification in the sense these guys mention it is not a home project for 99.999% of the population - certainly not for someone who does not even know the basics.

System2 · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

cariboocoot and russ you guys dont help people you bully them. I will not post on here anymore. Both of you are close minded people who are stuck on one plan of thinking your own. Our gasifiers are as safe as using a BBQ Grill! And yes some people get killed using BBQ grills too. So if your dumb dont buy a gasifier, but if you can use a BBQ grill and not kill your self then you should be ok.
Syngas is not methane!

methane is CH4
Syngas is CO+ H2

P.S Wood is solar power too!;)

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Garringer Gasifier wrote: »

cariboocoot and russ you guys dont help people you bully them.

We point out the down side to things as well as the up side. This is not one of those fake "anyone can produce free energy at home" web sites.

I will not post on here anymore.

What about your "alter ego"?

Both of you are close minded people who are stuck on one plan of thinking your own.

Nope. You didn't read any of my posts, did you?

Our gasifiers are as safe as using a BBQ Grill! And yes some people get killed using BBQ grills too.

Gas production and use of stored gas are not comparable in safety levels.

So if your dumb dont buy a gasifier, but if you can use a BBQ grill and not kill your self then you should be ok.

Never said a gasfier wasn't viable, just that there are things that should be thoroughly considered before going for one. You, on the other hand, are merely out to sell product and will ignore any negative aspects to do so.

Syngas is not methane!

methane is CH4
Syngas is CO+ H2

Depends on the actual process used. And storing up quantities of hydrogen isn't exactly safe either. Any type of flammable gas is a potential hazard.

P.S Wood is solar power too!;)

You got that right. In essence, all power comes from the sun. All fuels are basically hydrogen too. But there's a big difference in the nuances with changes of chemistry. Sugar and gasoline are both fuels and both made of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. But they are hardly interchangeable.

We have a duty to point out any potential hazards with anything, however small. This includes warnings about off-gassing hydrogen from batteries and wind turbines flying to bits in windstorms. We do this. It does not mean no one should use the technology. It means you have to be fully aware of what you're getting in to.

And you never answered my question about the IP address. :roll:

russ · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Anyone making the claim that a gasifier is as safe as a BBQ grill is seriously out of touch with reality.

No chemical engineer or person with gas production or gas handling experience would ever make that claim.

Neither of us is trying to bully anybody but I refuse to go along with Slick Willy stories from people that have no idea what they are talking about and who are trying to convince others of their scheme.

In this case it seems like a case of trying to get free advertisement.

Russ

Cariboocoot · March 2011

Re: Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

To all: the Garringer web site is lacking in specific technical information such as quantity of gas produced in a given time period or any other capacity spec. Yet it does have literally unbelievable claims that the same unit that can run a 10 HP engine can power "a small town". This is nonsense. There is no operation description nor outline of connection procedure. In short, it lacks some vital information needed for making any informed decision about it. This does not mean it doesn't work.

One thing that is mentioned is the $3,000 price. Money well spent? You decide.

Garringer Gasifier I think this would work good to back up my solar

Comments

Categories