Off-grid when the grid is available?
heynow999
Solar Expert Posts: 80 ✭✭✭✭
I install grid-tie systems in Ontario, Canada. We currently have a feed-in-tariff of 80 cents/kwh. We have been doing some trade shows lately and I am having an ongoing "discussion" with our salesperson about going off-grid. What happens is we get people asking us about going off grid when they are currently connected to the grid.
My answer is simple. Electricity from the grid is too cheap and no one is going to spend $100,000 plus on a system when they have the grid available. I am talking about a battery based, completely off-grid system, not net metering.
Our salesperson thinks that people like the idea of being off grid and there are some people out there who would be willing to spend the money because it is "green".
Just wondering what other peoples take on this is?
My answer is simple. Electricity from the grid is too cheap and no one is going to spend $100,000 plus on a system when they have the grid available. I am talking about a battery based, completely off-grid system, not net metering.
Our salesperson thinks that people like the idea of being off grid and there are some people out there who would be willing to spend the money because it is "green".
Just wondering what other peoples take on this is?
Comments
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Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
Financially it makes no sense whatsoever, as almost everywhere the grid is it is cheaper than the cost per kW hour for off-grid production. The only exception is in those areas where the grid is so unreliable that critical systems are in danger of failure.
But there will always be those who want to make "a political statement" by going off-grid regardless of costs. That's their choice. As long as it is explained about the costs and "not as green as you think" aspects (as well as the maintenance issues) ... if they still want to buy, let 'em.
Personally I think it's foolish. :roll: -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?I install grid-tie systems in Ontario, Canada. We currently have a feed-in-tariff of 80 cents/kwh. We have been doing some trade shows lately and I am having an ongoing "discussion" with our salesperson about going off-grid. What happens is we get people asking us about going off grid when they are currently connected to the grid.
My answer is simple. Electricity from the grid is too cheap and no one is going to spend $100,000 plus on a system when they have the grid available. I am talking about a battery based, completely off-grid system, not net metering.
Our salesperson thinks that people like the idea of being off grid and there are some people out there who would be willing to spend the money because it is "green".
Just wondering what other peoples take on this is?
Well you could run the numbers for both a grid-tied and off-grid system for the same average energy use.
When they see that the off-grid system costs 4-5 times as much and has a higher reoccurring cost (battery maintenance and replacement) they will probably lose interest in the off-grid system. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
Pay me $.80 kwh per kwh, regardless of tax and utility incentives and your are certifiable if you are willing to invest in solar but choose to go off grid!
Why would anyone pay twice as much for half the performance?
Tony -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
Why would anyone pay twice as much for half the performance?
Tony
Well, for some people, principle and the peace of mind that comes with home energy independence are more important than money.
I may well be one of those certifiable nuts, as I'm still grid connected, but am for all intents and purposes living off grid. The pleasure of knowing the energy being used for everything in the house, including the computer sending this message is totally independent of the grid, that the grid could go down for a month, a year, and it would have no affect on me personally, gives great satisfaction and peace of mind. It's like heating one's home with wood and having one's own wood supply, compared to heating with grid power and not knowing if we'll freeze to death in the dark and all the pipes freeze and burst if the grid goes down. It's my belief that for too long, too many of us have literally placed our well being, indeed out very lives in the hands of big business as a day to day way of life. Taking them to Court after we're dead isn't going to bring us back to life. Their reason for existence, is not to ensure the survival of their customers (look at big tobacco), rather it's to make a profit at all costs. Meanwhile we as a society have been lulled into believing the utility companies are like our mothers, willing to lay down their lives for our well being.
Food for thought
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Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
Just what we did. After the big outage in 2003 we decided to go off grid...just because. Some people buy new cars every few years, go on warm holidays, have a cottage etc etc. Not my wife and I, we are homebodies in the extreme.
To get to the level of power consumption to go off grid was a challenge, but do-able. We lived that/this way for 6 years before the microFIT program came about. Now we use the utility as our generator, but haven't changed habits otherwise (except we have one utility powered outlet in the kitchen for microwave, toaster, iron
)
People looked at us with a puzzled look at first, then it was just ''the Days'' and accepted as strange (nothing new). As Wayne says, it's not all dollars and cents in the decision. It has made us realize how wasteful our present construction methods and consumptions patterns are. Like trying to stop or turn a mega-sized tanker at sea...it takes time and effort to change.
Ralph -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
The near $80K cost of bringing the grid to our ranch was about the same as our off grid system.
For various reasons related to grid reliability, independance and land conservation, we decided on the solar system.
Coming up on our sixth year.Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
When I go to trade shows and ask people who come by to talk to me about solar, "What do you want to accomplish with a PV system?" their first response very often is, "I want to go off-grid." After a little bit of talking with them about what that actually entails, most of them change their minds.
Going off-grid when the grid is available and dependable is virtually never economically advantageous. That said, there are many folks out there who want to do it anyway. The reasons for it are as diverse as the people involved, and we do our best to give them what they want after we have gone through all the pros and cons with them as objectively and thoroughly as possible.
In the long run, what this industry needs in order to survive is an informed customer base, and often it is incumbent upon us to provide education along with whatever equipment and services we offer. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?Just what we did. After the big outage in 2003 we decided to go off grid...just because. Some people buy new cars every few years, go on warm holidays, have a cottage etc etc. Not my wife and I, we are homebodies in the extreme.
To get to the level of power consumption to go off grid was a challenge, but do-able. We lived that/this way for 6 years before the microFIT program came about. Now we use the utility as our generator, but haven't changed habits otherwise (except we have one utility powered outlet in the kitchen for microwave, toaster, iron)
People looked at us with a puzzled look at first, then it was just ''the Days'' and accepted as strange (nothing new). As Wayne says, it's not all dollars and cents in the decision. It has made us realize how wasteful our present construction methods and consumptions patterns are. Like trying to stop or turn a mega-sized tanker at sea...it takes time and effort to change.
Ralph
Are you sure we're not related? We sure do think and act alike! Maybe one day there will be a special mental hospital for folks like us - - ya think? lol -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
Wayne - one of our local utilities is now under scrutiny because a heavy snow 3 weeks ago caused so many outages it took them days - gasp - days to get everyone back online (in their defense, there were over 200,000 people affected unlike an average bad thunderstorm with a few thousand affected). The other local utility also had over 200,000 people affected but they were quicker to ask for outside help so their response was considered "acceptible". Of course new legislation has now been introduced to hold utilities in our state to a minimum level of service. Personally I feel like you do, if having power 24/7 365 is important to you, buy a generator and/or solar system. Don't expect the utility to spoon feed you when the snow is waist high and the wind is knocking down trees. For that reason I have a generator and a large battery bank w/inverter.
As for the OP's question - optimally dollar-wise I would install a 10 kw grid-tied solar system. Spend the $30,000 and net-zero every year. Or buy a 20 kw off-grid system and spend $60,000. But with other needs taking up a lot of $, constant utility outages, and a personal desire to be able to go long-term with no outside inputs (utility power or fuel to run a genset), a 1.5 kw off-grid system is highly likely in the near future. Everything else would still be on the grid.4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
20kw for $60K? Not in Canada anyway. My off grid 2.1kw pv and 1kw wind turbine with backup diesel generator cost about $70K. Only way to do 20kw for that price is to put $60K into a truck and steal components from other people!:-)
When you step back and look at what a utility has, and has to maintain, it's a wonder we have cheap (yes I said cheap) power at all. I have a lot of respect for the workers who go out in the worst weather conditions and work in a harzardous environment for us, so we can enjoy the lifestyle our parents trained us to live. There, I've passed blame too
Ralph -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?Don't expect the utility to spoon feed you when the snow is waist high and the wind is knocking down trees.
As for the OP's question - optimally dollar-wise I would install a 10 kw grid-tied solar system. Spend the $30,000 and net-zero every year. Or buy a 20 kw off-grid system and spend $60,000. But with other needs taking up a lot of $, constant utility outages, and a personal desire to be able to go long-term with no outside inputs (utility power or fuel to run a genset), a 1.5 kw off-grid system is highly likely in the near future. Everything else would still be on the grid.
Exactly. In times of disaster, money in the bank isn't going to save us. We must be prepared in advance to the best of our abilities. What it all comes down to, is that when push really comes to shove, we're on our own. In a real disaster, no utility will be able to save us, they'll be busy trying to save themselves.
Unfortunately not everyone has the physical, or mental ability to prepare for such events, but those of us who do, should seriously think on it.
Once it hits, it's too late then. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
There's no hope for us off-gridders . . .
As posted, our decision was based upon far more than just "cost". To us, cost is a relative term. Also, our remote "grid" has had its own problems.
The independance the system gives us is hard to explain to people.Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
Hi-Rel stuff on off grid RE is a no brainer. Our heat and chest freezer a couple lights and some to spare. We feel much more comfortable about not returning home every day.
Power went out for 10 short minutes 4 days ago....just enough time for the coal stoker to go out. No problem though, RE batt backup saw us through.:cool: -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
I suspect that when many people tell you they want to go off grid, they really mean they want to meet all of there electrical needs with solar. Which is a admirable and reasonable goal.
I think grid tied with battery back up is really the best option, assuming some already has grid power to their house.
No reason to not be able to sell back extra production. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
What is a practical setup for the Ontario micro-fit market that would provide both the grid-tied 80.2c/kwh tarriff rate, while being able to provide backup power from the pv and a battery bank in case of a grid outage? I'd guess that some small fraction of microFIT customers with concerns about their local utility grid reliability would pay a premium price for such a feature.
I've seen references around here to the SMA sunny boy inverter + sunny island combination to provide grid-tied power with battery backup, but how do you wire that in when the Ontario microFIT rules state: "...if you are planning to install a battery backup system, it must be located "downstream" of the microFIT project generation meter." It sounds like the battery bank + charger has to be connected behind the load meter, must charge from grid-supplied power, and can't be configured to charge from the pv array unless the power from the array is going out through the generation meter and back in to the load meter. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
You can use a changeover switch to move the connection from the GTI, like in the diagram below.
The diagram is from the Victron Solar Switch which is automatic: http://www.victronenergy.com/solar/solar-switch/ -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
The microFIT rules stipulate that all the power has to be metered by the utility, period. You can not have access to it in any way shape or form before the utility meter (except for ac disconnect). If you want battery backup you must have a separate system...batteries and inverter, pv wind or whatever.
10kw per connection point puts me out of net metering my home system, but at 80.2 cents per kwhr that's a no brainer. To threaten that 20 year contract for a little security would be crazy. Buy an inverter genset for any backup needs out of your first month or two of revenue.
Ralph -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
That depends. At my house, for example, the grid has been out for a total of about 15 minutes over the last 5 years or so. The beer in my fridge didn't even get warm. In my situation, battery backup would be a waste of money, not to mention the added headache of maintaining batteries.SolarLurker wrote: »I suspect that when many people tell you they want to go off grid, they really mean they want to meet all of there electrical needs with solar. Which is a admirable and reasonable goal.
I think grid tied with battery back up is really the best option, assuming some already has grid power to their house. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
When my sister wanted to bring power to her future home site, Medina Electric Co Op will only charge her $12,000 to bring electricity 1/2 mile from the county road.The near $80K cost of bringing the grid to our ranch was about the same as our off grid system.
For various reasons related to grid reliability, independance and land conservation, we decided on the solar system.
Coming up on our sixth year. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?SolarLurker wrote: »I suspect that when many people tell you they want to go off grid, they really mean they want to meet all of there electrical needs with solar. Which is a admirable and reasonable goal.
I think grid tied with battery back up is really the best option, assuming some already has grid power to their house.
No reason to not be able to sell back extra production.
I disagree. I thought about battery backup, but it's a huge expense. It adds several thousand dollars for enough backup to run for just one day.
The batteries require space, that's more expense. Maintenance, more expense. Periodic replacement, HUGE expense. And require energy daily to maintain them, which means you need a slightly larger array (more expense)
That's a lot of expense for very little benefit.
You can get the same benefit from a $600 generator and 10 gallons of gas. As an added bonus another 10 gallons of gas will double your run time. Doubling the run time with batteries will cost another couple thousand dollars.
Remember the most likely reason for a long term grid outage is a big storm, if that storm lasts several days you won't be getting much if any power from your array. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?I disagree. I thought about battery backup, but it's a huge expense. It adds several thousand dollars for enough backup to run for just one day.
The batteries require space, that's more expense. Maintenance, more expense. Periodic replacement, HUGE expense. And require energy daily to maintain them, which means you need a slightly larger array (more expense)
That's a lot of expense for very little benefit.
You can get the same benefit from a $600 generator and 10 gallons of gas. As an added bonus another 10 gallons of gas will double your run time. Doubling the run time with batteries will cost another couple thousand dollars.
Remember the most likely reason for a long term grid outage is a big storm, if that storm lasts several days you won't be getting much if any power from your array.
I agree 100%
Battery based grid tie is fine in theory, but unless you have more money than you know what to do with, or you live with a very unreliable grid, using batteries to hybrid your system makes no sense in my mind,, and I have said so many times before.
Take the battery money, buy a good EU genny, (or even a cheap one) for those rare outages, maintain it by running once a month, keeping clean fuel in it, and spend the difference on more PV. Every day the grid is up, the effective price of that genny gets smaller, as opposed to the batteries, which everyday get worth less.
Tony -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
this week in the news the White House is saying that we are at the highest threat level since 9/11.waynefromnscanada wrote: »Exactly. In times of disaster, money in the bank isn't going to save us. We must be prepared in advance to the best of our abilities. What it all comes down to, is that when push really comes to shove, we're on our own. In a real disaster, no utility will be able to save us, they'll be busy trying to save themselves.
Unfortunately not everyone has the physical, or mental ability to prepare for such events, but those of us who do, should seriously think on it.
Once it hits, it's too late then. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?this week in the news the White House is saying that we are at the highest threat level since 9/11.
In other news the easter bunny favours caramel chocolate this year.
That threat level is nothing but a media exercise and has no basis in reality. If it did, you'd be at threat level red since 1990 for the 25000 people that die on the roads every year.
Don't feed the fear brother -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
The government is giving good subsidies on electric cars. Once I can figure out how to run my house off of my electric car (battery bank) then I will entertain the idea of being more off grid then on grid. Currently I have 2kw of batteries for my electric bikes - but I do not ride them in the winter. The electric company does not turn their meters backward so the extra is stored in the batteries and I feed the power back into the grid at night. Since most of my commutes are short - the extra power generated to charge the electric car could be put to good use. These batteries can take the full discharge with no adverse effects. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
Some of us are preparing to be self sufficient to the best of our ability, for our own satisfaction, and / or to be prepared IF things go horribly wrong where we live.
Others have their own reasons to continue as usual, assuming nothing can go wrong, seeing no need to prepare for what may never happen.
Each group have their own reasons. To each their own, each group content with what they've done, or not done.
For me, I know that IF things go horribly wrong where I live, I'm now prepared as best I can be. Life for me will continue more or less normally, while all around me could be panic. That's IF things go horribly wrong where I live. And that's something none of us can know one way or the other. We can guess, we can assume, we can believe, but we can never know except in hindsight. In the meantime I also have the awesome satisfaction of knowing that my electric bill is prepaid for the next 20 or 30 years with the exception of a battery pack or two. So IF grid pricing goes through the roof, (and I believe they will continue to rise) it will mean nothing to me personally. I'm prepaid, I'm independent and able to live comfortably for at least a year cut off from the outside world. Notice I used the word "live" instead of just survive.
Again, to each his own.
Peace. -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
The reason they are emphasizing the threat level is because of the Egyptian Revolt, and what it could mean to many of its neighbors. Remember that a Democratically-backed Sadat was murdered and Mubarak took over. 30 years later, he is being overthrown.
This is just the sort of unrest that will ripple through the Muslim Extremist community, and in the US will send Oil Futures forcasting high. This directly affects prices at the pump.
Easter bunny? Please.....In other news the easter bunny favours caramel chocolate this year.
That threat level is nothing but a media exercise and has no basis in reality. If it did, you'd be at threat level red since 1990 for the 25000 people that die on the roads every year.
Don't feed the fear brother -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
Let's keep the politics to a minimum, please. Or even less. :roll: -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
sorry, I didn't know that stating a world fact was political.
Fact: Sadat was murdered
Fact: Mubarak was overthrown
Fact: Ripple effect through-out the East has been witnessed
Fact: Oil Futures do influence the price of gas to consumers
None of this is speculation, opinions, or analysis (ie-politics). -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?
I find more comfort in knowing that I have full control of my essential power requirements being partially off-grid.
I find no comfort knowing that if there is a massive outage for extended periods that I will take a number while holding on the line if there is a line available.
I feel a generator is a poor way to prepare for such an event what with all the moving parts and fuel requirements and such.
I've yet to find an acceptable generator that would meet my requirements efficiently without the use of batteries and a battery charger. Can you imagine running a generator to supply only ~50W of power 24/7 and ~600W for a moment every hour.....then level out to ~150W for 15 minutes every hour?
Run a genset for 60AH 24/7 daily?? Are you kidding me?
It just don't add up at all...... -
Re: Off-grid when the grid is available?I find more comfort in knowing that I have full control of my essential power requirements being partially off-grid.
I find no comfort knowing that if there is a massive outage for extended periods that I will take a number while holding on the line if there is a line available.
I feel a generator is a poor way to prepare for such an event ... I've yet to find an acceptable generator that would meet my requirements efficiently without the use of batteries ...
Hey, get out of my head!
In hindsight I wish I hadn't spent the money I spent on a genset and had put it towards solar 6 years ago. I have since installed a large battery bank + inverter to hold me overnight and during the day (same reasons as the 2nd part of your post, plus add "lack of noise so I can sleep at night" to the list), so all I'm lacking is the PV anyway.4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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